Spelling of foreign place names

[Irish Rover]

I’m doing a bit of research for a short summer cruise around the Eastern Aegean Islands and almost every source I look at has a different spelling on each place. Do Imray and Rod/Lucinda et al make it up as they go along or what’s the reason? I’m not sure how old my G32 Imray is but I noticed one of my favourite swimming spots close to Kuşadası is shown as Yalanci Burnu (translates as Liars Point) whereas the actual name is Yilanci Burnu which translates as Snake Catcher Point or Snake Keeper Point. Christ only knows what some of the Greek names I’ve written in my notebook actually mean.

 

[jdc]

I can't know of course what others do, but I can tell you about the CA's mapping app, as used to make illustrations in 'Cruising' for instance. We use the database from 'www.geonames.org' which contains more than 8 million place names, their coordinates and some extra data such as the importance of the settlement, or if its an island or regions or country etc. (We don't actually use it directly, but an edited version where I have suppressed commercial entries such as motels).

Looking up 'Yalanci' it gives the following:

297858 Yılancı Burnu Yilanci Burnu Yalanci Burnu,Yalancı Burnu,Yilanci Burnu,Yılancı Burnu 37.85978 27.24153 T PT TR 09 0-9999 Europe/Istanbul 2015-01-07

Interpreting this;
column 1 is just a unique id (297858)
column 2 is the official name in the local language / alphabet
column 3 is the plain ASCII representation of that name
column 4 is a list of alternative spellings
columns 5 and 6 are the lat and long
and the rest are various designations of type of geographic 'thing' it is.

From these, it seems that the official name is indeed Yılancı Burnu, but some locals can be expected to use any of Yalanci Burnu, Yalancı Burnu, Yilanci Burnu, or Yılancı Burnu. It does not endorse your view that Yalancı Burnu is somehow the 'correct' spelling. Sure it will be according to some, but not universally.

By the way, I wouldn't worry too much about the translations from Turkish: closer to home anything in Gaelic is almost completely random! Nobody really knows what Corryvreckan translates to, such is the charm of oral tradition in place names.

 

[Irish Rover]

Just to be clear I believe the correct name of the place is Yilanci Burnu and not the other as you suggest. As for the anglisised form of Gaelic names they are a complete nonsense imposed on Ireland and Scotland by our English masters. The actual Gaelic names are usually very descriptive of the place for instance the alternative name for Dublin which is Dubh Linn meaning Black Pool (the official Gaelic name is Baile Atha Cliath which means the town of the hurdled ford).

 

[Vega1447]

Just to be clear I believe the correct name of the place is Yilanci Burnu and not the other as you suggest. As for the anglisised form of Gaelic names they are a complete nonsense imposed on Ireland and Scotland by our English masters. The actual Gaelic names are usually very descriptive of the place for instance the alternative name for Dublin which is Dubh Linn meaning Black Pool (the official Gaelic name is Baile Atha Cliath which means the town of the hurdled ford).

Yep. A lot was lost when people were "encouraged" to forget their own language.

Place names went from descriptions/memories to random sounds.

 

[LittleSister]

But it isn't as simple as just nasty old colonists obscuring the 'true' names of places. In oral based societies, where few are literate, place names aren't very fixed - places will be referred to differently by different people, or for different purposes, or at different times. It's only when place names are written down in documents, then reproduced, (e.g. maps, royal charters, established public bodies, etc.) that regularity develops and something gains, through repetition or someone having the power to have the final say, a sufficiently fixed name for it to be regarded as 'correct'. (See Michel Foucault and Brian Friel for details )

It is not to deny the additional layer of English colonial power that affected the evolution place names in Ireland (and many other places) to point out that place names in England have also changed radically over time and through different dialects and languages, and that the place we now call Ireland didn't always (ever?) have a unified language or settled place names before the Brits arrived.

 

[macd]

In Greece the placename issue is compounded by the 'original' being in a different alphabet. Place names may be westernised by literal transposition or phonetically, the latter often being fairly subjective and variable. The result is that even on local signposts, which commonly include both the Greek and Westernised form, there's often no agreed spelling. I've approached the same town from three different directions and found the latter officially displayed in as many different forms.

It all makes navigating to an address by satnav, er...interesting. In fact the only dependable way is to ask the visitee for their lat and long. And even that carries faint echoes of former colonial power

 

[vyv_cox]

In Greece the placename issue is compounded by the 'original' being in a different alphabet. Place names may be westernised by literal transposition or phonetically, the latter often being fairly subjective and variable. The result is that even on local signposts, which commonly include both the Greek and Westernised form, there's often no agreed spelling. I've approached the same town from three different directions and found the latter officially displayed in as many different forms.

It all makes navigating to an address by satnav, er...interesting. In fact the only dependable way is to ask the visitee for their lat and long. And even that carries faint echoes of former colonial power

For example, the spelling of the home port Piraeas/Piraeus differs on many Greek ships.

 

[Irish Rover]

One of the spots I’m planning to visit on Samos Island is called
Marathokambos by Imray and Navionics
Marathakambos by Heikell
Marathokampos by Google Earth
Ah gawan now Ted shur ya no wha I ment

 

[LittleSister]

In an Irish document I noticed that a town was written 3 different way in two pages (I had to check with someone that it meant the same place, and there weren't several similarly named towns in the area). And that was in an official County Council technical document, published only 25 years ago.

And isn't it shocking how few people spell Londinium correctly these days?

 

[vyv_cox]

One of the spots I’m planning to visit on Samos Island is called
Marathokambos by Imray and Navionics
Marathakambos by Heikell
Marathokampos by Google Earth
Ah gawan now Ted shur ya no wha I ment

The source of that particular problem is that in Greek the letters MP (sorry cannot manage Greek characters on here) are pronounced B. So what to us is Olympia is pronounced Olibia by the Greeks.

Captain Elias' pilot clearly shows it as a Pi and he spells the English version Marathakampos.

 

[macd]

One of the spots I’m planning to visit on Samos Island is called
Marathokambos by Imray and Navionics
Marathakambos by Heikell
Marathokampos by Google Earth
Ah gawan now Ted shur ya no wha I ment

Google Translate renders both Marathokambos and Marathokampos as "ΜΑΡΑΘΑΚΑΜΠΟΣ" (I'm using upper case because it's somewhat more familiar to we westerners.)

Greek "M" has the same sound as western "M" as in "Mother".
"Π" is obviously "Pi", pronounced "P" as in "Pope".
So, obviously the sound is as Google Earth has it: MarathokaMPos.

But...and it's a big but...there is no letter in Greek with the sound "B", as in "Boat". (B, beta, is actually pronounced more like the western "V")
In Greek, the "B" sound is written as the letter combination"MΠ"...as in MarathokaMPos :ambivalence:

Other sounds, such as the western "D", "G" and "J" have similar issues. Gamma, Γ, is pronounced somewhere between a hard "G" and a hard "Y". The Greek "X" represents the "ch" in "loch" (as a Scot might pronounce it).

See the problem?

(I'm very far from being a Greek linguist, but think this is so.)

I see Vyv got in there first. Trust a metallurgist to deconstruct the elements

 

[AntarcticPilot]

1. First of all, there will be an "official" gazetteer in almost every country in the world. It is usually managed by the national mapping agency, whatever that is. In the UK, it's the OS.
2. Second, the only correct names are those in the official gazetteer. There may be multiple names to handle the situation where more than one language is in use (e.g. Gaelic and Welsh in the UK); the names in different languages may not be the same.
3. Third, databases like Geonames and Google, while very convenient, are NOT authoritative, and my experience is that their databases are riddled with errors! They are also not responsive to corrections.
4. Fourth, placenames are (unsurprisingly) a very political issue, especially in a region such as the Aegean, where recent history includes changes of sovereignty. Assigning a placename is seen as an assertion of sovereignty, and in some parts of the world (like Antarctica) is the primary means by which nations assert sovereignty. Consider the Falkland Islands, a.k.a. Las Malvinas!
5. Fifth, when names are officially in a non-Roman script (as in Greece), transliteration to Roman characters may vary between sources. It gets worse when the local script is not alphabetic, as in China, where it is even more complicated by the fact that a single set of characters is used to represent many different languages!

There's lots more; I spent a large part of my time working on placenames and the summary above is very much a summary - in reality it gets a lot more complex. Further, placenames are often an emotive subject; try explaining to a scientist that the unofficial names he's been using for many years in a particular region are not officially acceptable because they don't adhere to strict guidelines...

I should also mention that placenames are the only issue where (as a government scientist) I was given a political instruction to veto a certain class of solutions at an international technical meeting. Fortunately my international colleagues understood and sympathized with my situation!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Google Translate renders both Marathokambos and Marathokampos as "ΜΑΡΑΘΑΚΑΜΠΟΣ" (I'm using upper case because it's somewhat more familiar to we westerners.)

It's even worse when (like most western Europeans who know Greek) you use the classical pronunciation, which is NOT the same as that used by modern Greek! I stumble over Beta being a V sound! I'd also dispute your assertion that Greek capitals are more familiar; I actually struggle to read capitals, but can easily read lower case. It happens that lower case Greek characters are usual in many contexts such as mathematics.

 

[macd]

I'd also dispute your assertion that Greek capitals are more familiar; I actually struggle to read capitals, but can easily read lower case. It happens that lower case Greek characters are usual in many contexts such as mathematics.

I'm reasonably familiar with mathematical notations, AP, and you have a point. But if I'm late for a flight on an unfamiliar road, I can more quickly process a sign saying "ΚΑΛΑΜΑΚΑ" than "Καλαμάκα".

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I'm reasonably familiar with mathematical notations, AP, and you have a point. But if I'm late for a flight on an unfamiliar road, I can more quickly process a sign saying "ΚΑΛΑΜΑΚΑ" than "Καλαμάκα".

And I'm exactly the other way round; I can process "Καλαμάκα" much quicker. Mind, your example isn't a good one - the juxtaposition of Α and Λ is a difficult combination to see anyway! But I did study classical Greek to O-Level in my early teens, so reading a Greek text is something I can do. I hasten to say that my Greek these days is pretty much non-existent!

 

[macd]

Never got further than a couple of years being inattentive in Latin. Good job for both our sakes that most of the signs also have "KALAMAKA", then.

 

[LittleSister]

Interesting, and I don't disagree with anything you say in the particular context you talk about it, but . .

1. First of all, there will be an "official" gazetteer in almost every country in the world. It is usually managed by the national mapping agency, whatever that is. In the UK, it's the OS.
   
   That's true, but as someone who has managed the people who supply some of the place names to O.S. to be added to the maps, gazetteers, unique property references etc. I can assure you that the relationship between the 'official' name and what was intended, or what it is known as locally, is sometimes, er, approximate.
   
   
2. Second, the only correct names are those in the official gazetteer. There may be multiple names to handle the situation where more than one language is in use (e.g. Gaelic and Welsh in the UK); the names in different languages may not be the same.
   
   Correct names according to whom/when? It depends on someone being able to convince/circulate/police name use. (As you pick up in your later points.) As a couple of people have mentioned above, some 'Irish' place names survived the 'imposition' by the British of Anglicised or alternate names.
   
   Interestingly, there's actually an Irish Government department which researches pre-British/O.S Irish language names, so that they can be 'restored'. and the 'incorrect' (but officially 'correct' for the previous century or two) can be superseded. The challenge for them is that before the Brits mapped the place, names weren't regularised, so theres often a choice of Irish names recorded (with ambiguity about exactly where they referred to or how much currency they actually had). When they can't find a historic name they devise a new, but suitably old fashioned, new 'correct' name to replace the colonial one.
   
   
3. Third, databases like Geonames and Google, while very convenient, are NOT authoritative, and my experience is that their databases are riddled with errors! They are also not responsive to corrections.
   
   But if everyone calls, writes and maps somewhere (perhaps because that's what circulates on Google etc.) with a different name from what is in the official record, what is the 'real' name?
   
4. Fourth, placenames are (unsurprisingly) a very political issue, especially in a region such as the Aegean, where recent history includes changes of sovereignty. Assigning a placename is seen as an assertion of sovereignty, and in some parts of the world (like Antarctica) is the primary means by which nations assert sovereignty. Consider the Falkland Islands, a.k.a. Las Malvinas!
   
   Absolutely. Consider also 'Northern Ireland' vs. 'north of Ireland', 'Derry' vs. 'Londonderry' etc.
   
5. Fifth, when names are officially in a non-Roman script (as in Greece), transliteration to Roman characters may vary between sources. It gets worse when the local script is not alphabetic, as in China, where it is even more complicated by the fact that a single set of characters is used to represent many different languages!

And when the official names are in a written script, but the locals don't much use writing?

Is it possible to have an official name without a written script? Without a map?

There's lots more; I spent a large part of my time working on placenames and the summary above is very much a summary - in reality it gets a lot more complex. Further, placenames are often an emotive subject; try explaining to a scientist that the unofficial names he's been using for many years in a particular region are not officially acceptable because they don't adhere to strict guidelines...

I should also mention that placenames are the only issue where (as a government scientist) I was given a political instruction to veto a certain class of solutions at an international technical meeting. Fortunately my international colleagues understood and sympathized with my situation!
That was because your scientific work is part of the means by which state power is exercised to assert/impose/regularise those names (which in turn is part of the way power is asserted over that land itself, which in turn contributes to the power the state has, etc.).

The name of a place (official and/or otherwise) is more about the society that uses the name(s) than the place itself.

A map, too, is more about the society that creates and/or uses it than the place it purports to describe. It is a critical means by which power (including that of naming) is asserted. That is partly because it's a culturally very specific and effective way of asserting names and other powers (as the Irish and Australian aboriginals found to their cost), and in part because we tend to assume it is straightforwardly describing a place, rather than something that makes us look at, and name, a place in a particular way.

Not that there's any way to innocently apprehend or describe the 'true' nature of a place!

Apologies for banging on, but I've spent years wrestling with this stuff. :ambivalence:

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The name of a place (official and/or otherwise) is more about the society that uses the name(s) than the place itself.

A map, too, is more about the society that creates and/or uses it than the place it purports to describe. It is a critical means by which power (including that of naming) is asserted. That is partly because it's a culturally very specific and effective way of asserting names and other powers (as the Irish and Australian aboriginals found to their cost), and in part because we tend to assume it is straightforwardly describing a place, rather than something that makes us look at, and name, a place in a particular way.

Not that there's any way to innocently apprehend or describe the 'true' nature of a place!

Apologies for banging on, but I've spent years wrestling with this stuff. :ambivalence:

Well, yes for most of what you say. However, there is a ultilitarian aspect to the concept of "official" names; if you have a well-defined set of names they become useful in georeferencing. I refer you to ISO 19112:2003, which I've had some dealings with! I have also published on placename geographies - see http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/id/eprint/12727/

I've been fortunate enough to be working in an area where an internationally agreed set of guidelines for naming were in place; this specifically barred duplicate names, so Antarctica does not suffer from a plethora of "Sgeir Dubh"s! There are also other conventions regarding the generic parts of names, which must usually be selected from an approved list, and the specific parts of names must be a single word (some historic names break this one). I was also working in an area where there is no native population, so all names are given by external bodies.

There is another aspect of place naming that you may or may not be aware of. The example I give is geological, because that's the area I am most familiar with, but I am sure similar issues arise in other fields. When a geological formation is named, it is named after a "type locality". This type locality become (essentially) the definition of the formation, and it's name is adopted as the name of the formation. Changing the name given to the location can obviously cause significant confusion and dislocation! Unfortunately, there are instances that I know of where geologists have give a formation a name which has then become the name of the locality; it was very difficult to reject a name proposal when it had already entered the scientific literature, even if the name would not otherwise have been adopted.

 

[jdc]

While I agree that Google's names can't be considered at all authoritative, geonames is a bit better imho. It isn't that surprising that they resist 'corrections' emailed in from individuals as they seem to care about the source of data. It can be seen here: http://www.geonames.org/datasources/

If one looks for Turkey for instance, the source is the Turkish ministry of internal affairs, so while geonames is not 'official' it's about the best one can do without enormous effort, and so I suppose it's actually what publishers do.

Of course, their source of data on Antarctica is http://www.antarctica.ac.uk

PS: Never look for conspiracy when simple c*^k-up fits the facts. I can well imagine how place names got 'official' in Ireland or anywhere else rural. You don't have to smell conspiracy or ill-will; some underpaid clerk was sent off with scarcely any equipment and no staff and told to 'go and map' some vast tract of land. Actually the did a damn fine job (OS maps are something the British can be proud of), but imagine the problem of the afore-mentioned clerk: he finds the first local he can and asks what do you call this field / pond / house / village? Supposing language problems aren't too hard, and he's not picked the village idiot, he'll get 'oh, that's Bill's Field' and diligently write it down. Of course it was a field the yokel believed belonged in some fashion to someone called Bill, but an 'official' name no way; the concept probably didn't exist. You can call it 'colonialism' if you like, but actually it was just the march of social change which brought mapping and boundaries and parishes and county borders and pig movement licences. It was the same with the Domesday-book.

PPS: Actually the man responsible for giving the orders to such clerks in Ireland was a young Irish mathematical genius called Francis Beaufort. He eventually became hydrographer to the Navy, Admiral Fitzroy of Beagle fame's boss among other things and gave this name to the wind force scale. Definitely an Irishman not an Englishman.

 

[Birdseye]

Just to be clear I believe the correct name of the place is Yilanci Burnu and not the other as you suggest. As for the anglisised form of Gaelic names they are a complete nonsense imposed on Ireland and Scotland by our English masters. The actual Gaelic names are usually very descriptive of the place for instance the alternative name for Dublin which is Dubh Linn meaning Black Pool (the official Gaelic name is Baile Atha Cliath which means the town of the hurdled ford).

Fine but outside Ireland and Scotland , nobody speaks those minor obsolete languages. Most people understand some English so God only knows why UKHO tries to confuse by using Gaelic names which many of the local inhabitants dont even know, let alone a Ukranian navigator on a big ship.