So, what is wrong with the RNLI?

[toad_oftoadhall]

An earlier standard was BS3595. Lifejackets to this standard were around in the 70s. Inflatable lifejackets were permitted - although I'm not clear whether this included automatic inflation as well as manually-triggered inflation.

Many thanks pvb, that's cracked it. I can't find the full text of BS3595/81 but Google suggests BS3595/81 did require foam-filling. Inflation was purely secondary. That, (if that's right) would totally support my recollection that LJ's took off for sailors when the standard changed to allow less bulky LJs.

Can you or anyone else confirm one way or the other?

 

[grumpy_o_g]

People have been over-officious, pompous, jobsworths, call it what you will, since homo sapiens first evolved. Man's first spoken words were probably something like "if you're going to bring that fire into this cave you need to make sure there at least two exits and vertical balanced flue". When I was a lad I'd get shouted at by people for playing football outside their house or rattling a stick along their fence and park wardens would shout at us to do this or that or not to do this or that. There was always some miserable git around to spoil your fun.

Now that I'm older I am that miserable git so I can just ignore them or tell them to go away. However, for every person that cries 'it's nannying' there's one that cries 'you didn't tell me'. You can ignore advice if you think you know better but you can't take advice you aren't given.

The only "miserable gits" I'm worried these days about are the ones where you can't tell them to go away (councils, RSPCA, HMRC, DVLA, police, etc.). I'll save my efforts for them.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Recollection Of The Lifejacket Change Over Time

toad_oftoadhall from the early to late 80s the sail training yachts and charter yachts that I was involved with all carried the foam filled lifejackets with kite mark and separate safety harnesses.

They were, I believe, classed as buoyancy aids until inflated. On the sail training yacht we used the RNLI style of the time - orange, foam filled rubber (neoprene) encased with an outer yellow nylon cover. Quite bulky, slim, comfortable to wear, grab handle at the front in addition to the oral inflation tube and whistle; no crotch straps but strap to hold neck collar down attached to waist belt. The neck collar was a close fit over the head. They were long and the waist belt worked to hold it down when you jumped in as it secured around the narrow waist.

Then in the very late 1980s we started changing out to non foam filled inflatable types, like we see today. I was not aware of any standard changes but it happened quickly. I left in 1990 to pursue other interests but remember the disappearance of the bulky lifejacket was quick.

I occasionally assisted colleagues on an adhoc basis and noticed that from the early 1990s most schools had removed harnesses in favour of the combi lifejacket. The days of harness fitting and use with a life jacket were over.

My photos of back then (frighteningly young and swarthy looking) are in stark contrast to today's by the absence of a lifejacket in all of them (including students) except when in the dinghy. More than a few though have me wearing a harness.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

toad_oftoadhall from the early to late 80s the sail training yachts and charter yachts that I was involved with all carried the foam filled lifejackets with kite mark and separate safety harnesses.

They were, I believe, classed as buoyancy aids until inflated. On the sail training yacht we used the RNLI style of the time - orange, foam filled rubber (neoprene) encased with an outer yellow nylon cover. Quite bulky, slim, comfortable to wear, grab handle at the front in addition to the oral inflation tube and whistle; no crotch straps but strap to hold neck collar down attached to waist belt. The neck collar was a close fit over the head. They were long and the waist belt worked to hold it down when you jumped in as it secured around the narrow waist.

Then in the very late 1980s we started changing out to non foam filled inflatable types, like we see today. I was not aware of any standard changes but it happened quickly. I left in 1990 to pursue other interests but remember the disappearance of the bulky lifejacket was quick.

I occasionally assisted colleagues on an adhoc basis and noticed that from the early 1990s most schools had removed harnesses in favour of the combi lifejacket. The days of harness fitting and use with a life jacket were over.

My photos of back then (frighteningly young and swarthy looking) are in stark contrast to today's by the absence of a lifejacket in all of them (including students) except when in the dinghy. More than a few though have me wearing a harness.

Your recollection is almost identical to my brother's and mine, except we thought the magic change time was mid-90's rather than late 80's. Like you, we recall the change being very sudden: 2-3 years from none to total coverage. ISTR replacing my webbing harness with my first inflatable harness/LJ in the late 1990's - as a tightwad I was very late to make the change and my webbing harness looked very dated indeed for a long while! As you say I never wore an LJ 'till the inflatables and I never knew anyone who did and I sailed with a fair number of people.

This was such a big change in sailing. I'm amazed it isn't etched in more people's minds. Possibly more dramatic than the change from Decca to GPS.

Maybe we're the one's who are misremembering!

 

[prv]

Your recollection is almost identical to my brother's and mine, except we thought the magic change time was mid-90's rather than late 80's. Like you, we recall the change being very sudden

OK, so we seem to have established, to at least some people's satisfaction, that there was a time when lifejacket-wearing suddenly became much more common. The reason the question was raised was to see whether there was any correlation with accident rates, and hence whether or not jackets might have had an effect.

Can anyone dig out the relevant accident data? I guess this predates MAIB.

Pete

 

[mikefleetwood]

I suspect the sudden take-up of LJ wearing came about when an influx of relatively cheap imported inflatable LJs made it affordable and convenient for the average sailor.

Prior to that, your choices were - cheap boyancy aids, bulky + expensive solid core LJs, or even more expensive hybrid LJs (as described by previous posters).

 

[oldfatgit]

With the help of BlowingOldBoots have found Ubergeekian's message here regarding his unfortunate incident with the RNLI. As a case study it makes interesting, if disturbing reading. Firstly, I know from my own experience something which happened 20 years ago like that can remain as fresh in the mind as if it happened yesterday. I do not doubt that Ubergeekian's recolection is pretty close to what happened and that, certainly from his point of view, he was both intimidated and bullied into a course of action he did not want to take.

If challenged now, I'd expect the Coxswain would stand by his actions asserting that, on recollection, he had genuine cause to take the actions he did. Nevertheless, pressures acting on him would not have been entirely due to what he found when he met up with Ubergeekian between A and B. I do not proffer these as justification but rather to promote understanding.

No Coxswain is going to be a shrinking violet; ordinary what he says is done and done straight away without questioning. When faced with Ubergeekian he expected to be obeyed but, instead, found himself challenged in front of his crew who, it sounds like, loyally backed him up. Furthermore, he would have been concerned that, if Ubergeekian did get into trouble, then the crew and the Institution but above all him as a Coxswain would be cast in a bad light. So to him it was a lower risk option to insist and get the outcome he did. If Ubergeekian had complained he would simply have dismissed those complaints as coming from an amateur and rested on his authority. What I am asserting here, is that it would have taken a stronger Coxswain and more secure man to take the other course of action.

It was 20 years ago. I know that within the Institution much has changed since then and in particular their training has improved. Also the Institution's own culture is much less authoritarian; it is to be hoped that, given a repeat performance, the Coxswain would be more open minded to the possibility that Ubergeekian was competent enough to be “allowed” to carry on. Furthermore I'd hope that s/he would be more cognisant of the limitations of their own authority. Nevertheless, I am not an admirer of “hope”, I prefer evidence and so if anybody can provide any then that would be reassuring.

Finally, the Institution can only improve if people complain. Not in a banging the table and shouting way, but in a thorough and rigorous way with the aim of getting them to sit up, notice and improve. Difficult in the heat of the moment, so don't, but the next day or week, perhaps possible. This applies to everything that they do which is unsatisfactory. The Institution has been recognised for its business excellence with an international award. Part of the underpinning of such awards is that processes are in place to listen to complaints, learn from them and get better; summed up as having a culture of Continuous Improvement. So everybody I urge you to complain but not for your benefit, but rather for theirs.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

OK, so we seem to have established, to at least some people's satisfaction, that there was a time when lifejacket-wearing suddenly became much more common. The reason the question was raised was to see whether there was any correlation with accident rates, and hence whether or not jackets might have had an effect.

Yeah, it's been quite a trek getting to this point. Post 50 to post 80-something. If the question [1] caused so much angst, imagine what the answers gonna do!!!

[1] PS: Possibly a digression, but it occurs to me this is quite easy to measure. Before inflatable LJ's came out nobody wore an LJ. Since then a huge number of people have started to wear LJs. So has there been a massive decline in deaths since the mid 90's when IIRC inflatable LJs first started to appear?

 

[oldfatgit]

Yeah, it's been quite a trek getting to this point. Post 50 to post 80-something. If the question [1] caused so much angst, imagine what the answers gonna do!!!

[1] PS: Possibly a digression, but it occurs to me this is quite easy to measure. Before inflatable LJ's came out nobody wore an LJ. Since then a huge number of people have started to wear LJs. So has there been a massive decline in deaths since the mid 90's when IIRC inflatable LJs first started to appear?

I was wondering when the rabbit hole was going to be bottomed out.

 

[Searush]

Right, you Barstewards that don't believe me!

I have in front of me a 1964 advert by RFD (who later bought out Beaufort) for their inflatable "Working Lifejacket" which conforms to the then current British Standard (BS3595; 1963) which required it to be "fully self-supporting & holding the head above water". It is exactly the same as my contemporary Beaufort ones & worn as a folded lapel, partially inflated to provide initial bouancy. It is manually inflated by CO2 to produce a bladder exactly like modern life jackets. Incidentally, the ad quotes 1000 people drowning in the UK per year, of whom 100 (10%) were from small craft incidents. I suspect the ratios may be slightly better today due to better eqt & rescue facilities.

Don't get me wrong, these were expensive - I paid £30 for my "seconds" one when that was two week's wages for most people - probably equivalent to £4-500 today. As others have identified, they were not common - but they were the best you could get & real life jackets - even by today's standards.

EDIT: What probably happened in 1990 was that cheap Chinese imports enabled the majority of people to buy inflatables L/Js, but they have been around for about 50 years to my knowledge.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

If you don't want to wear a life jacket then don't. It really is that simple

Would that decision not be better made from an informed standpoint? If it transpires that deaths on yachts dropped fomr 10,000 a year to 2 a year the year that life jacket wearing seriously kicked off would that not be useful information?

If not, why not?

 

[Searush]

Would that decision not be better made from an informed standpoint? If it transpires that deaths on yachts dropped fomr 10,000 a year to 2 a year the year that life jacket wearing seriously kicked off would that not be useful information?

If not, why not?

Hey, I can make up random numbers too you know, what if it went from 5 to 50?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

What probably happened in 1990 was that cheap Chinese imports enabled the majority of people to buy inflatables L/Js, but they have been around for about 50 years to my knowledge.[/I]

So you've just remembered there was a massive increase in life jacket wearing in the 90s, after all?

I wonder if perhaps you were aware of this increase all along, and as one of the board of govenors of the RNLI you tried to conceal the increase in LJ wearing becuase you know that the increase did not coincide with a dramatic fall in deaths on leisure boats. Which would perhaps leave you with some rather awkward questions to answer.

It did cross my mind last night that you couldn't have forgotten and there might have been something sinister behind it, but I thought I was being too cynical.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Hey, I can make up random numbers too you know, what if it went from 5 to 50?

I think that would be useful too? Perhaps you could explain why you think it wouldn't? Or would the Govenors of the RNLI already know the answer and would rather people didn't find out?

 

[Searush]

So you've just remembered there was a massive increase in life jacket wearing in the 90s, after all?

I wonder if perhaps you were aware of this increase all along, and as one of the board of govenors of the RNLI you tried to conceal the increase in LJ wearing becuase you know that the increase did not coincide with a dramatic fall in deaths on leisure boats. Which would perhaps leave you with some rather awkward questions to answer.

It did cross my mind last night that you couldn't have forgotten and there might have been something sinister behind it, but I thought I was being too cynical.

WTF are you on? Can I have some please?

I don't give a toss if there was an increase or not, but I do know that despite your original claim that they didn't exist before 1990, I own several from the 1950's & 60's. I suggest you reread the whole thread & then you too can laugh at your paranoid idiocy above.

Oh, & yes, I'm a shoreline member of RNLI & have been for many years - it doesn't give me any more in the way of executive powers than any other donor in the street. Please try to stay slightly in touch with reality if you wish to continue the discussion.

 

[DogWatch]

Right, you Barstewards that don't believe me!

I have in front of me a 1964 advert by RFD (who later bought out Beaufort) for their inflatable "Working Lifejacket" which conforms to the then current British Standard (BS3595; 1963) which required it to be "fully self-supporting & holding the head above water". It is exactly the same as my contemporary Beaufort ones & worn as a folded lapel, partially inflated to provide initial bouancy. It is manually inflated by CO2 to produce a bladder exactly like modern life jackets. Incidentally, the ad quotes 1000 people drowning in the UK per year, of whom 100 (10%) were from small craft incidents. I suspect the ratios may be slightly better today due to better eqt & rescue facilities.

Don't get me wrong, these were expensive - I paid £30 for my "seconds" one when that was two week's wages for most people - probably equivalent to £4-500 today. As others have identified, they were not common - but they were the best you could get & real life jackets - even by today's standards.

EDIT: What probably happened in 1990 was that cheap Chinese imports enabled the majority of people to buy inflatables L/Js, but they have been around for about 50 years to my knowledge.

aaarggghhhh

 

[Lakesailor]

When I was a lad I'd get shouted at by people for playing football outside their house or rattling a stick along their fence and park wardens would shout at us to do this or that or not to do this or that. There was always some miserable git around to spoil your fun.

Quite right too. You horrible little scrote.

On the subject of wearing lifejackets. I will wear one when I feel it necessary. And only then.

 

[Old Troll]

Old Troll

I have been a skipper professionaly for over 50 years on small fishing boats and yachts and thankfully have never required the RNLI services. However it has always been a comfort to know that the lifeboats were there if lives were at risk. I stood bye in my very seaworthy fishing boat one hellish winters night as the lifeboat carried out a rescue in which I could not see any other vessel or crew being able to provide this service The RNLI is a wonderfull institution and who could replace the organisation. Of course nothing is ever perfect and with a mixture of adrenalin and fear and the pressure and responsibility involved lifeboatmen are not always going to react to please all of the people all of the time. As for lifejackets. It is standing orders onboard my yacht with RYA customers or when sailing with friends that lifejackets are worn at all times. If you do not want to wear a lifejacket for yourself then wear it for others onboard, family etc. What will you say to the coroner at an inquest if a crew member is lost and was not wearing a lifejacket.
If a crew member goes overboard in a running sea with darkness falling. Would you rather they were wearing a self inflating lifejacket or not?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

If a crew member goes overboard in a running sea with darkness falling. Would you rather they were wearing a self inflating lifejacket or not?

I'd rather they were clipped on.

 

[Old Troll]

Old Troll

Off Course, clipped on and wearing a lifejacket/harness. The question however remains unanswered. If a crew member for whatever reason should go overboard and not be attached to the boat Would you rather they were wearing a lifejacket or not?