So the £3000 plus, Ultra anchor was chosen!
- Thread starter Zagato
- Start date
Zagato
Well-known member
It will be interesting to see how the new Lewmar Epsilon compares. The s/s version is coming out in November and the Galv one in Feb/March in the U.K.
Lewmar Epsilon Stainless Steel Anchor
Lewmar Epsilon Stainless Steel Anchor
Last edited:
Seven Spades
Well-known member
What is more impressive is he replaced all his chain with stainless to match. Have you seen the cost of 100m of stainless, it will have cost at least £8000!
Neeves
Well-known member
In the real world people don't have that volume of cash and having a result focussing on ground tackle that costs, based on the costs above of Stg11,000 (does that include the swivel?) is well outside reality. All credit to him - he has put in the effort and tested anchors - it all adds to our data base.
I agree with Zagato - the Epsilon release will be interesting.
Its a pleasure though to see people willing to test, and share, and for us to know that there is someone somewhere tinkering and trying to make a better anchor - all power to them, all.
Reflecting a bit further
Its interesting how long he seems to have been happy using a Delta (and I think he also said he had a Bugel). He appears to have sailed all over the med for at least 4 years with his Delta, presumably anchoring every night. Its a creditable performance for the Delta. Its obviously a very recent vid as it has a Viking in one of the pictures and they are very new, and hardly mainstream.
Jonathan
I agree with Zagato - the Epsilon release will be interesting.
Its a pleasure though to see people willing to test, and share, and for us to know that there is someone somewhere tinkering and trying to make a better anchor - all power to them, all.
Reflecting a bit further
Its interesting how long he seems to have been happy using a Delta (and I think he also said he had a Bugel). He appears to have sailed all over the med for at least 4 years with his Delta, presumably anchoring every night. Its a creditable performance for the Delta. Its obviously a very recent vid as it has a Viking in one of the pictures and they are very new, and hardly mainstream.
Jonathan
Last edited:
Koeketiene
Well-known member
I've been following his youtube channel for a while.
Entertaining and interesting at times.
Picked up some things too - never too old to learn something new.
However, some of his recommendations should come with a 'provided money is no object' warning.
Elessar
Well-known member
What a very high quality video. Approaching pro production standards. Lovely to watch.
Neeves
Well-known member
I think he glossed over too much - if I were spending that level of money I'd have had a more exhaustive look and I would also have waited for the Epsilon to arrive on the scene. The Epsilon has been known of for 3 years (so I might accept the delay in coming to market might have been a discouragement). He glossed over the Excel, said it takes too long to set (which I, Morgan's Cloud and Panope have not found) and doubt he will have tested one anyway and certainly not a stainless one. So he is relying on hearsay. He discounted the galvanised steel Spade because of the issues of galvanising quality and the need to remove lead from the toe if you did want to re-galvanise in the fullness of time - but he bought a stainless anchor anyway so this was all a bit of a red herring. On prices I understand, but I don't recall from where, that Ultra anchors are cheaper in the eastern Med, near where they are made. He also implied that he tested the anchor and then decided to buy one - he was lucky to be lent a stg3,000 anchor for testing. I simply cannot believe he tested the Ultra and said - that's the anchor for me as he did not actually test anything else, other than his past history, which seemed largely good, with the Delta.
Everything else being equal stainless anchors should be better than galvanised steel anchors - it is a well known fact that a polished smooth surface allows development of better hold than a galvanised anchor and certainly a cast one (so he was not comparing like with like). I have to assume there was much more background that he thought might bore us - but he could have made mention.
I liked the fact he did test, did take a video and both require a lot of effort (the editing alone takes effort). I was prepared for the 'money no object' - though this was a really extreme case as I know Ultra well. I have tested one (on loan and I gave it back) - excellent product, but to me simply not worth the extra - I can think of better things to spend that level of cash on. It might be better than a Spade, Excel etc - but I don't think anyone could tell the difference - its asset is the glitz factor - which leaves me cold. It does have one facet worthy of mention - it does not carry mud to the same degree as galvanised anchors might and do - a function of the smooth surface.
Jonathan
Everything else being equal stainless anchors should be better than galvanised steel anchors - it is a well known fact that a polished smooth surface allows development of better hold than a galvanised anchor and certainly a cast one (so he was not comparing like with like). I have to assume there was much more background that he thought might bore us - but he could have made mention.
I liked the fact he did test, did take a video and both require a lot of effort (the editing alone takes effort). I was prepared for the 'money no object' - though this was a really extreme case as I know Ultra well. I have tested one (on loan and I gave it back) - excellent product, but to me simply not worth the extra - I can think of better things to spend that level of cash on. It might be better than a Spade, Excel etc - but I don't think anyone could tell the difference - its asset is the glitz factor - which leaves me cold. It does have one facet worthy of mention - it does not carry mud to the same degree as galvanised anchors might and do - a function of the smooth surface.
Jonathan
Elessar
Well-known member
Rappey
Well-known member
You could say they are pros as she is an ex itv news reader and he was a camera man.
A good youtube channel.
Elessar
Well-known member
Interesting. It shows.
Tradewinds
Well-known member
They covered war zones too. Seem pretty unflappable.
Zagato
Well-known member
A news reader and a camera person... I wouldn't call him a man in front of her . It appears they had little experience prior to setting sail on their journey in May 2019. This comes out in the early videos, they are very much learning... no bad thing but it is easy to come across as somewhat of an authority in "instructing or information giving or advising" videos. In my line of work I see people falling foul all the time as they believe what the manufacturers say on the tin and people on you tube or forums saying how to apply products. This is not their fault, he points out he researched anchors from googling, not actually testing them himself apart from the ones he already uses. He really is just making content for a you tube channel and showing off his anchor, nobody has to watch his diary, I don't, this video just came up on FB!
It's a showy/blingy bit of ground tackle, goes with the boat! I wonder if anchors at the end of the chain tell more about the owners character than we realise. If they had a dog what would it look like on the end of a lead, encrusted with broken boiled sweets!!
. It appears they had little experience prior to setting sail on their journey in May 2019. This comes out in the early videos, they are very much learning... no bad thing but it is easy to come across as somewhat of an authority in "instructing or information giving or advising" videos. In my line of work I see people falling foul all the time as they believe what the manufacturers say on the tin and people on you tube or forums saying how to apply products. This is not their fault, he points out he researched anchors from googling, not actually testing them himself apart from the ones he already uses. He really is just making content for a you tube channel and showing off his anchor, nobody has to watch his diary, I don't, this video just came up on FB!It's a showy/blingy bit of ground tackle, goes with the boat! I wonder if anchors at the end of the chain tell more about the owners character than we realise. If they had a dog what would it look like on the end of a lead, encrusted with broken boiled sweets!!
Neeves
Well-known member
Its an interesting anchor.
Its a perfectly good anchor, it does what its meant to do. It has the advantage (in my eyes) of being stunning. I had always thought if I had a marine business I'd have three of them made up as the base of a coffee table.
But you don't, generally, see it on sailing yachts in Australia (mono-hulls or catamarans). If adorns (and I use the word with care) flashy largish MoBos (those with lots of chrome). Often they also use stainless chain (which I suspect is 316, not duplex - I say this with some slight authority as I had lunch with the manufacturers of Cromox and they suggested sales were not stellar in Oz, which is why they had made the visit - I'm sure as result of lunch with me their sales have improved ).
I also know the manufacturer of the anchor, in Turkey, and the distributor here and I've followed the developments with interest. They put a lot of effort into beefing up the shank (it has a complex spine of stainless down the inside) and on having it certified as a SHHP anchor by ABS (part of which demands shank integrity). They started off making reels for tape for anchoring (Quickline), then made the anchor, followed by the swivel. They are now better known for the anchor than the reels.
As I mentioned, in mud it tends to be retrieved clean, or cleaner, than most other anchors (all of which that I have tested have been galvanised).
The downside is that other anchors come in 2 versions, galvanised and stainless (and sometimes aluminium). In the 2 (or 3) version form you get the same (or so similar you cannot tell the difference) performance whether its galvanised,stainless (or aluminium). For Ultra its just stainless, its expensive and most people will baulk at buying one.
But it has carved a niche in the market - all credit to them.
If it cost the same as a galvanised version - I'd have the stainless (because I think it gorgeous) and because it comes up clean from mud.
On the video I was disappointed at the lack of comparable testing, but maybe that appears on other videos. I got bored toward the end of the video (I did not take note of when exactly, 11 or 12 minutes) when they were 'testing' the Ultra under water and fast forwarded. I agree with Zagato (if I interpret what he says correctly) - there is too much credibility placed on good video or good photography that appears on the internet where the conclusion actually lacks substance. In this case there may be lots of substance behind their purchase - but I prefer to see it, less is simply less - and in this case lacked substance - so much so it raised questions in my mind.
I know that the technical performance of an Ultra cannot be questioned, or no more than other good anchors (they are all that compromise) - but - to me - that did not come through on the video (because there was no comparison, nor a cross section of seabeds). I also question the inability to hammer a spike into the seabed but a rather large anchor 'set' easily - not credible.
I'm the first to admit to not spending much time looking at sailing video, most I find tedious (I do like those, or some of, from Halcyon). I would be interested to learn why this specific video was described as 'fab'?
If I were Boyuz (? spelling) - I'd be happy.
Jonathan
Its a perfectly good anchor, it does what its meant to do. It has the advantage (in my eyes) of being stunning. I had always thought if I had a marine business I'd have three of them made up as the base of a coffee table.
But you don't, generally, see it on sailing yachts in Australia (mono-hulls or catamarans). If adorns (and I use the word with care) flashy largish MoBos (those with lots of chrome). Often they also use stainless chain (which I suspect is 316, not duplex - I say this with some slight authority as I had lunch with the manufacturers of Cromox and they suggested sales were not stellar in Oz, which is why they had made the visit - I'm sure as result of lunch with me their sales have improved
).I also know the manufacturer of the anchor, in Turkey, and the distributor here and I've followed the developments with interest. They put a lot of effort into beefing up the shank (it has a complex spine of stainless down the inside) and on having it certified as a SHHP anchor by ABS (part of which demands shank integrity). They started off making reels for tape for anchoring (Quickline), then made the anchor, followed by the swivel. They are now better known for the anchor than the reels.
As I mentioned, in mud it tends to be retrieved clean, or cleaner, than most other anchors (all of which that I have tested have been galvanised).
The downside is that other anchors come in 2 versions, galvanised and stainless (and sometimes aluminium). In the 2 (or 3) version form you get the same (or so similar you cannot tell the difference) performance whether its galvanised,stainless (or aluminium). For Ultra its just stainless, its expensive and most people will baulk at buying one.
But it has carved a niche in the market - all credit to them.
If it cost the same as a galvanised version - I'd have the stainless (because I think it gorgeous) and because it comes up clean from mud.
On the video I was disappointed at the lack of comparable testing, but maybe that appears on other videos. I got bored toward the end of the video (I did not take note of when exactly, 11 or 12 minutes) when they were 'testing' the Ultra under water and fast forwarded. I agree with Zagato (if I interpret what he says correctly) - there is too much credibility placed on good video or good photography that appears on the internet where the conclusion actually lacks substance. In this case there may be lots of substance behind their purchase - but I prefer to see it, less is simply less - and in this case lacked substance - so much so it raised questions in my mind.
I know that the technical performance of an Ultra cannot be questioned, or no more than other good anchors (they are all that compromise) - but - to me - that did not come through on the video (because there was no comparison, nor a cross section of seabeds). I also question the inability to hammer a spike into the seabed but a rather large anchor 'set' easily - not credible.
I'm the first to admit to not spending much time looking at sailing video, most I find tedious (I do like those, or some of, from Halcyon). I would be interested to learn why this specific video was described as 'fab'?
If I were Boyuz (? spelling) - I'd be happy.
Jonathan
Zagato
Well-known member
Do you mean FB, FaceBook. Apologies if so... I am used to FB.
Says it is made from 316L with a Duplex steel shank.
I can't see the less pretentious Eric 'the Viking' Aanderaa buying an Ultra, wouldn,t go with his tattoos!
Says it is made from 316L with a Duplex steel shank.
I can't see the less pretentious Eric 'the Viking' Aanderaa buying an Ultra
, wouldn,t go with his tattoos!
Last edited:
Sandy
Well-known member
I've just invested in a Knox, thankfully at nothing like the cost of the one they have just bought, my old Bruce is about to go on the For Sale pages.
Seven Spades
Well-known member
I don’t think the Ultra is about bling I think it is the best anchor. If I could I would buy one because they will come up clean. I would also like a stainless steel chain because they don’t pile up on retrieval. I would be put off buying a stainless anchor if I didn't also replace the chain because of galvanic action. In short it is not vanity to choose that anchor it is simply a very good choice.
Neeves
Well-known member
Zagato
If you refer to my use of the word Fab - it meant (fabulous - or I assume that's what Elessar meant).
He posted above:
'The video was fab.
The anchor will be good enough.
Less is more.'
And I wondered why he gave it a 'fab' rating.
No - its not available as a galvanised product because the shank is sealed and you cannot drop a piece of hollow enclosed steel into a galvanising bath - or it explodes and scatters molten zinc all over the place. You could do as Spade do and have it 'open' but that then involves other issues.
The reality is that shanks need to be thin, as fat shanks retard anchor penetration. Thin steel bends and as Peter Smith defined - HT steels over come the problem as they are still strong when thin. Streamlining the shank is not advantageous as its the maximum thickness that determines the level of retardation and hollow shanks tend to be thicker than a single plate. It would possibly be better to simply make the Ultra shank from the 2205 alloy (duplex) plate (which is about 600 MPa) and the Spade shank from a Q&T 800 MPa plate of maximum thickness less that the fabricated shank. But this would detract from the beauty of the Ultra (and its beauty is obviously a major factor in its success) and for Spade its almost part of a 'trademark'.
Now whether the hollow shank makes a difference to righting moment - I simply don't know - but making that hollow shank is not cheap.
Jonathan
Seven Spades - I'm with you but it is a high price to pay. Cromox is a G60 chain and you could quite comfortably down size from 8mm to 6mm or 10mm to 8mm - so there is no need to replace 'like with like'. Cromox would not tower and would also not carry, so much, mud.
Everyone knows (by now) we replaced our 8mm hot dipped galvanised chain for a bespoke Armorgalv coated 6mm chain and one unexpected benefit is that the galvanised coating polishes, because the Armorgalv process results in a harder coating, and after some use the chain now looks like 'black stainless'. It does not 'tower'.
If you look at the final image in this article:
Running the Lines on the Multihull Bridle - Practical Sailor
you can get an idea where the chain is 'shiny'.
Bodycote in the UK offered ( they may still do so) the process and here it works out very economic (cheaper than HDG chain). However I don't believe Bodycote ever coated chain, but it might not be impossible. its a common process for chain in America, used by the US Navy and Army.
J
Last edited:
Bobc
Well-known member
It'd be cheaper to buy a second Delta and another 50m of chain.
noelex
Well-known member
The Ultra anchor is certainly a very good anchor, but amongst the many good results I have observed, there have been a couple of disappointing performances. Anyway, take a look at the many photos I have taken of the Ultra underwater and make up your own mind.
This is one of the occasions when I was disappointed with the performance I was observing. It was only at 3:1 (after allowing for the bow roller height as you should do) in only 4m water. This is a tough test.
The Ultra set nicely and rotated level in a reasonable distance, but a lot of the underside of the fluke is still exposed. The set is much more a piling up of the sand rather than a diving down of the fluke. Worryingly, it was still gradually moving backwards in the gusts rather than digging in further. You can see the puffs of sand that are given off as it shifts back. Notice how the chain is lifting during the gusts, as you would expect for this wind force and scope, but the chain angle is still reasonable:
This is one of the occasions when I was disappointed with the performance I was observing. It was only at 3:1 (after allowing for the bow roller height as you should do) in only 4m water. This is a tough test.
The Ultra set nicely and rotated level in a reasonable distance, but a lot of the underside of the fluke is still exposed. The set is much more a piling up of the sand rather than a diving down of the fluke. Worryingly, it was still gradually moving backwards in the gusts rather than digging in further. You can see the puffs of sand that are given off as it shifts back. Notice how the chain is lifting during the gusts, as you would expect for this wind force and scope, but the chain angle is still reasonable:
Graham376
Well-known member
I'm a bit puzzled by this note - Optional roll bar for sailboat application. Why would a sailboat need a roll bar whereas the statement suggests power boats don't? The type of boat has no effect on an anchor's performance.