SNSM tariffs for towing

[RichardS]

I wonder if the MCA or the RNLI could do a rescue in French

Who would bother to speak a minority language?

Richard

 

[sjdtuk]

Met a boat in Cherbourg once. His engine, newly restored, had failed catastrophically ( big end ) off Cap de la Hague in zero wind. He had been towed into Cherboug and presented with a large bill calculated per person on the life boat. The oldest was about 80 apparently.

 

[Sybarite]

Not surprising really, they get tax payer subsidy and charity donations and still charge 600 euros plus to tow a yacht over 7 metres.
But each country to their own.

Their operating budget is 1/10th that of the RNLI.

About 15% of that comes from the state.

 

[jordanbasset]

Their operating budget is 1/10th that of the RNLI.

About 15% of that comes from the state.

Am really not having a go, just do not understand, you say they are 90% more efficient, in addition they get subsidy from the tax payer, and they get charity donations, how on earth do they still need to charge such high fees for towing. Or in other words where does the money go?
Or is it that the French do not contribute much on the way of charity donations to them?

 

[Flica]

It was only the other day that I was thinking we were about due for an RNLI-bashing post from Sybarite. And he never disappoints!

I was under the impression that the SNSM only charges for towing in boats, and that any rescue where life might be in danger would be done for free. But according to that webpage they also charge for assisting windsurfers, kitesurfers and sailing dinghies, which in my experience often, although by no means always, does involve a risk to life.
If someone does find themselves in genuine difficulties, and they're not going to make it back unaided, far better that they call for help early, rather than delaying because they're worried about incurring a large bill.

I know I'm not totally objective, given my role as ILB crew, but I think we're better off with the RNLI way of doing things, thanks.

Charges are only levied on non-Mayday situations, or so I was told by the Cox of the Raz du Sein boat.

certainly the RNLI system is far less expensive, for the Treasury, than the French system and IMHO, as ex-relief crew, considerably more efficient. Any disadvantages are down to "economies" in the CG.
It took 23' for any response from Corsen CROSS when I put out a Pan-Pan - very wise as by that time I'd found my own solution to a tramontane, in a mastless boat with a jumbo sack around the prop.

 

[Sybarite]

Am really not having a go, just do not understand, you say they are 90% more efficient, in addition they get subsidy from the tax payer, and they get charity donations, how on earth do they still need to charge such high fees for towing. Or in other words where does the money go?
Or is it that the French do not contribute much on the way of charity donations to them?

The basic difference is that the RNLI pay about 1200 people to look after the administration. This is done by volunteers in France.

So the RNLi is not "a purely volunteer organization."

 

[[70521]]

The basic difference is that the RNLI pay about 1200 people to look after the administration. This is done by volunteers in France.

So the RNLi is not "a purely volunteer organization."

I'd love to understand why you are so interested in the financial affairs of two rescue organisations that are run in separate countries with totally different cultures.

 

[Sybarite]

I'd love to understand why you are so interested in the financial affairs of two rescue organisations that are run in separate countries with totally different cultures.

I am interested because it soon became evident on the forum that little was known about the RNLI financial position.

For example when the little old lady leaves money to the RNLI (unless it is a specific demand) she supposes that she is contributing to the acquisition of a lifeboat.

In fact around 10% goes to boats and roughly as much goes on staff pensions.

It will be interesting to see if the RNLi - after Brexit - will continue to benefit from the same public generosity. It needs to because it is currently committed to a high fixed cost model.

 

[dogleg]

I am interested because it soon became evident on the forum that little was known about the RNLI financial position.

For example when the little old lady leaves money to the RNLI (unless it is a specific demand) she supposes that she is contributing to the acquisition of a lifeboat.

In fact around 10% goes to boats and roughly as much goes on staff pensions.

It will be interesting to see if the RNLi - after Brexit - will continue to benefit from the same public generosity. It needs to because it is currently committed to a high fixed cost model.

having recently dealt with the RNLI legacy department on behalf of a family member they make it crystal clear that they prefer legacies for general purposes rather than a specific use.

Ref a previous post in this thread do you consider 130 full time ALB mechanics and around 80 full time coxswains + full time crews on the Thames and the Humber, district engineers, electrical IT staff, boat surveyors and the staff now building and fitting out new and refitted boats at Poole and Cowes as administrators?

 

[[70521]]

I am interested because it soon became evident on the forum that little was known about the RNLI financial position.

For example when the little old lady leaves money to the RNLI (unless it is a specific demand) she supposes that she is contributing to the acquisition of a lifeboat.

In fact around 10% goes to boats and roughly as much goes on staff pensions.

It will be interesting to see if the RNLi - after Brexit - will continue to benefit from the same public generosity. It needs to because it is currently committed to a high fixed cost model.

Thanks Sybarite.

As I've posted before I am engineer married to a member of CIMA and CIPFA, so see things from two very different angles, and know good people in both organisations.

You do get a huge amount of criticism on the forum about your posts challenging the costs that the RNLI have, but the environment both business and maritime are very different and thus the amount of cash to run the organisations cannot be compared, but then again you might prefer that people don't get a pension and are destitute after they retire.

I am confident BREXIT will have zero effect on the generosity of the public to contribute to any charity as the real economy has been in freefall since 2008.

 

[Sybarite]

the environment both business and maritime are very different and thus the amount of cash to run the organisations cannot be compared

Yes they can. I just did.

...but then again you might prefer that people don't get a pension and are destitute after they retire.

Sorry, but that's just silly.

I am confident BREXIT will have zero effect on the generosity of the public to contribute to any charity as the real economy has been in freefall since 2008.

I hope you are right but I am not as confident as you.

 

[Sybarite]

having recently dealt with the RNLI legacy department on behalf of a family member they make it crystal clear that they prefer legacies for general purposes rather than a specific use.

Ref a previous post in this thread do you consider 130 full time ALB mechanics and around 80 full time coxswains + full time crews on the Thames and the Humber, district engineers, electrical IT staff, boat surveyors and the staff now building and fitting out new and refitted boats at Poole and Cowes as administrators?

See what I mean about a high cost structure. Do you really need 130 full time mechanics as well as district engineers? Do the boats keep breaking down?

 

[jordanbasset]

Am really not having a go, just do not understand, you say they are 90% more efficient, in addition they get subsidy from the tax payer, and they get charity donations, how on earth do they still need to charge such high fees for towing. Or in other words where does the money go?
Or is it that the French do not contribute much on the way of charity donations to them?

The basic difference is that the RNLI pay about 1200 people to look after the administration. This is done by volunteers in France.

So the RNLi is not "a purely volunteer organization."

But that makes my point even more, they don't pay their staff, the more you tell us about how SNSM are so efficient and penny saving the more I think what are they doing with their money?

 

[Mark-1]

See what I mean about a high cost structure. Do you really need 130 full time mechanics as well as district engineers?

On the face of it yes. If you have a large number of boats you need a large number of people to service them, and you probably do want to do it in house.

 

[Flica]

I think Sybarite makes many valid points, speaking as an ex-inshore crew, who has met a lot of SNSM personnel.
The RNLI, as a charity, is very effective at raising cash and keeping the cost off our tax-system. SNSM displays all the disadvantages of a state-system, low investment, a sclerotic response which tries to dissuade people from calling on it and adding to their costs.
I'm sure that no-one in a caring profession would consider they should not be paid. The RNLI has an enviable working model, exploiting peoples' better instincts and, in the 21st century almost completely dedicated to the leisure sailors.

I once towed a 40' powerboat, 6 miles, to the entrance of Pwehelli marina in my 31' sailboat. He'd put out a Mayday because he'd lost both engines. Forgotten to turn on the raw-water cocks after the winter service (carried out by others).

 

[dogleg]

See what I mean about a high cost structure. Do you really need 130 full time mechanics as well as district engineers? Do the boats keep breaking down?

as you probably know each ALB station has a full time mechanic to maintain the boat and no our boat does not break down probably because we have a very good mechanic who maintains to the highest possible standard, the DT is for the more highly specialist tasks or those which require additional assistance

do French ALB'S have a full time mechanic or any full time crew?

 

[[70521]]

Sorry, but that's just silly.

No its not. Try living on the state pension these days. The government has even brought in a compulsory pension scheme for all employers because the state pension is so low.

On the BREXIT note, I really, really cant see it affecting how people are going to give to charities as all people make those sorts of spending decisions for all sorts of reasons. They may have less in the pocket, but people do dig deep.

 

[[70521]]

as you probably know each ALB station has a full time mechanic to maintain the boat and no our boat does not break down probably because we have a very good mechanic who maintains to the highest possible standard, the DT is for the more highly specialist tasks or those which require additional assistance

Sounds like excellent, preventative, maintenance something accountants are not that keen on as it costs money, as my wife tells me all the time. However, it's a bit embarrassing having a boat break down when saving life especially when the press get hold of it.

 

[Sybarite]

Sounds like excellent, preventative, maintenance something accountants are not that keen on as it costs money, as my wife tells me all the time. However, it's a bit embarrassing having a boat break down when saving life especially when the press get hold of it.

I would love to know how that mechanic fills in his working day - every day??

Boats need to be serviced of course but apart from checking oil-levels after every shout what else is done day by day?

The SNSM has regional service centres with reserve boats. Also the crews are mainly made up of professional seamen: fishermen merchant marine etc who know very well how to maintain their own boats.

It should also be noted that the 58' SNSM CTT (AWB) has the same engines as the 46' Shannon and I suppose they are subject to the same service schedules.

The SNSM has an on-line service schedule for its boats to which all stations are hooked up.

 

[penberth3]

I would love to know how that mechanic fills in his working day - every day??

Boats need to be serviced of course but apart from checking oil-levels after every shout what else is done day by day?...

Apart from the boat, any cleaning and maintenance round the station, receiving deliveries, dealing with visitors, admin and paper work, reporting to HQ, ordering consumables, checking time-limited items including medical equipment, compliance with statutory requirements. Is that enough?