wotayottie
Well-Known Member
from new my boat has had a 130% headsail rather than the standard 150%. what effect will this have on its PY handicap? 5% /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif or 1% /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
small headsail - effect on handicap
- Thread starter wotayottie
- Start date
michael_w
Well-Known Member
None, I'd have thought. PY is an "empirical observed performance" method of handicapping. For yachts there isn't a sufficently large database to allow for such variations as headsail size.
If you want to take full advantage of the reduction in headsail area you need to get a proper IRC rating which is based on accurate measurements and secret formulae.
Rating Office
If you want to take full advantage of the reduction in headsail area you need to get a proper IRC rating which is based on accurate measurements and secret formulae.
Rating Office
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
It has to make some difference under PY - after all there are adjustment factors for bilge keels, for spinnakers, for cruising chutes etc. the PY adjustments to reflect actual results are applied to a standard starting figure - you cant just start on any old number and go from there - unfortunately. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
dont want to race IRC - their fleet is a bit too serious and full of all out racy boats rather than cruisers.
dont want to race IRC - their fleet is a bit too serious and full of all out racy boats rather than cruisers.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
no effect
its your choice not to have the max allowed
its your choice not to have the max allowed
H4B
Well-Known Member
I think that the PY number is based on a head sail between 150% and 130% overlap . Under 130% some allowance can be made.
FullCircle
Well-Known Member
On a one off race basis you may lose out.
In club series, like mine (Roach Sailing Association), your boat performance first fixed, then is aggregated over several races if there are promoters or inhibitors to performance, and your handicap reviewed and adjusted accordingly.
For instance I am racing a Cruising fat bum full weight tub against a 24ft racing blade, so adjustments will be made over time.
In club series, like mine (Roach Sailing Association), your boat performance first fixed, then is aggregated over several races if there are promoters or inhibitors to performance, and your handicap reviewed and adjusted accordingly.
For instance I am racing a Cruising fat bum full weight tub against a 24ft racing blade, so adjustments will be made over time.
Aeolus_IV
Well-Known Member
It is not likely to have any impact on a PY handicap as this system is based on recorded performance data and not on measurements. Typically the only "features" which vary one model of a class from another (ie both Beneteau 323s, for example) are depth of keel, mast height, propeller type, mainsail type (slab or in-mast reefing). These effectively make each variant of the basic model its own class under PY. The whole area is a total can of worms, and not likely to provide terribly satisfactory results.
IRC handicaps on the other hand, are based on measurements, and so the sail size will have an impact on the handicap. But many people feel that IRC handicaps "do not suit" their boat. This is probably true for some.
Regards,
Jeff.
IRC handicaps on the other hand, are based on measurements, and so the sail size will have an impact on the handicap. But many people feel that IRC handicaps "do not suit" their boat. This is probably true for some.
Regards,
Jeff.
flaming
Well-Known Member
The impact of headsail size, especially of changing from overlapping headsails to non overlapping is an equally contentious subject in IRC I assure you!
Many, myself included, feel that the credit is way over generous.
I have no direct PY experience, but suggest you talk to whoever issues your handicap. But 5% seems over generous. For changing from a 135% (I think) overlapper to a 100% blade we dropped about 1.5% under IRC, and frankly I think that was too much.
Many, myself included, feel that the credit is way over generous.
I have no direct PY experience, but suggest you talk to whoever issues your handicap. But 5% seems over generous. For changing from a 135% (I think) overlapper to a 100% blade we dropped about 1.5% under IRC, and frankly I think that was too much.
jwilson
Well-Known Member
Whatever the club committee choose to give it. As other have said PYs are completely arbitrary, though for popular classes there are some guidelines that clubs are reluctant to move far from. One of the best ways to get some tatty silver is to borrow a boat of an unusual class or a one-off that has raced for years with a useless crew and earned a really favourable PY and then put a good helm and crew on for one race.
Aeolus_IV
Well-Known Member
There has been a move here for IRC rated boats to drop their #1 headsail (and even their #2 sail as well) from their rating. With a tendency for windier days and more exposed water than Lake Solent /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif this seems to have work for them, but only here. Lighter races, or racing away often highlights the consequences of such a decision.
Regards,
Jeff.
Regards,
Jeff.
lw395
Well-Known Member
Are you asking what the % difference in performance is, or what allowance handicappers will actually give?
I would have expected the performance change to be about 1% on average, assuming a minority of windy races where you'd be faster with the smaller sail, or change down.
What a handicapper actually gives you depends on the policy of the club. Some handicappers give credit for short handed, white sails (not high tech), age of boat. Some don't.
One design racing is far better, especially if you can race against boats of similar age and sail budget, against people you respect. Handicap racing is OK, but a poor substitute imho.
I would have expected the performance change to be about 1% on average, assuming a minority of windy races where you'd be faster with the smaller sail, or change down.
What a handicapper actually gives you depends on the policy of the club. Some handicappers give credit for short handed, white sails (not high tech), age of boat. Some don't.
One design racing is far better, especially if you can race against boats of similar age and sail budget, against people you respect. Handicap racing is OK, but a poor substitute imho.
flaming
Well-Known Member
It's been quite staggering on the solent.
We have a dual certificate, rated for overlappers fully crewed and non overlappers when double handed.
Other boats that don't do much IRC racing other than doublehanded stuff (J109s mainly) just have the non cert.
Red funnel was amazingly light, never more than 10 knots, several races completed in less than 6.
We were staggered at the ability of the 109s with non overlappers to keep up, even in the very light, when this is where we expected them to take the biggest hit for their choice, especially as they didn't have special light jibs, but were just using their number 3s. It's left us wondering if we should go non overlapping for our fully crewed racing as well. Though as the owner just bought a brand new number 1 he's not so keen!
We have a dual certificate, rated for overlappers fully crewed and non overlappers when double handed.
Other boats that don't do much IRC racing other than doublehanded stuff (J109s mainly) just have the non cert.
Red funnel was amazingly light, never more than 10 knots, several races completed in less than 6.
We were staggered at the ability of the 109s with non overlappers to keep up, even in the very light, when this is where we expected them to take the biggest hit for their choice, especially as they didn't have special light jibs, but were just using their number 3s. It's left us wondering if we should go non overlapping for our fully crewed racing as well. Though as the owner just bought a brand new number 1 he's not so keen!
Aeolus_IV
Well-Known Member
I used to find that on Aeolus (which is far from being a J109) the #3 I used (about 105% but max LL) was good down to 8 or 9 knots, but below this everything got very sticky and slow. I have a #1 now which isn't a huge increase in sail area, but brings the "sticky" point down another 3 or 4 knots by which time other factors are making themselves felt more: waves and tide.
Jeff.
Jeff.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I have no direct PY experience, but suggest you talk to whoever issues your handicap. But 5% seems over generous. For changing from a 135% (I think) overlapper to a 100% blade we dropped about 1.5% under IRC, and frankly I think that was too much.
[/ QUOTE ]
The 5% was a figure plucked out of the air though my guess would be nearer 5 than 1.5%. There's a world of difference between the effect of reduced sail area on a relativley heavy cruiser with a lowish standard sail area and a racey type boat with lots of sail area to start with.
I have no direct PY experience, but suggest you talk to whoever issues your handicap. But 5% seems over generous. For changing from a 135% (I think) overlapper to a 100% blade we dropped about 1.5% under IRC, and frankly I think that was too much.
[/ QUOTE ]
The 5% was a figure plucked out of the air though my guess would be nearer 5 than 1.5%. There's a world of difference between the effect of reduced sail area on a relativley heavy cruiser with a lowish standard sail area and a racey type boat with lots of sail area to start with.
