Single or Double ????

[flaming]

As far as performance is concerned, most modern cats will outsail cruising monos of the same length. A racing mono will beat a cruising cat to windward but on any other point of sailing will struggle to keep up.

I often hear this claim, and I struggle to make it sit with what I observe on the water.

Lets put some science to it.

In this year's Round the Island race, the fastest multihull in the "bridgedeck" class finished in 9 hours and 19 minutes, and was a Broadblue 345. (Elapsed time, not a corrected time)

In the cruising Mono class of roughly similarly sized boats, ISC 6C 24 boats finished in faster times than this. And in fact the fastest boat, a J24, finished in under 8 hours.
Now granted that some of the boats in this class were quite racy, like the J24, but there are Halberg Rassy 34s, Bavaria 34s etc in that list. A Hanse 350 was only just shy of an hour faster.

In the next class, 7A, 22 boats were faster - again largely a mix of Bavarias and Nicholsons etc.

And so it continues, in fact you have to go to the very slowest class, 8D, which is laregly made up of SCODs and mid 20 foot cruising boats for the fastest cruising cat to have beaten all of them home.

And 2011 was not a freak year, the results are pretty consistent over the years.

 

[Sybarite]

This, coupled with the scenes from that Greek anchorage recently where a large cruising cat was inverted at anchor, convince me to stay mono, ta very much !

I haven't heard of this, can you given me details?

I remember reading an account in a French magazine of an incident during a hurricane in the Carribean. A catamaran held by its anchor was actually flying above the water.

 

[E39mad]

To be fair to cats Flaming we are discussing cruising situations and I do not need to tell you most racing is dependant upon upwind/downwind performance which is not most catamarans forte by any means.

In cruising situations anywhere between 50 and 120 degrees off the wind a modern well designed cat should out perform a similar size monohull under main and foresail.

Like monohulls there are vastly differing designs - monos have motorsailers to stripped out racing boats - catamarans have short stumpy rigs with low bridge decks to racing style hulls with high bridgedecks. The design differences are comparible.

As for the round the island cat flipping - you would never get to that situation when cruising just as in a monohull you wouldn't get close to snapping the mast or chinese gybing with the kite up. These situations need to be put in context when making a comparison.

 

[Simondjuk]

I think that reply rather misses the point. Flaming was responding to a comment which said 'As far as performance is concerned, most modern cats will outsail cruising monos of the same length. A racing mono will beat a cruising cat to windward but on any other point of sailing will struggle to keep up.'

As Flaming then pointed out, the RTI results say otherwise, even in classes made up of bog standard cruising boats. A Bavaria could hardly be called sporty afterall, so why are they sailing a circular route, involving all points of sail, faster than comparably un-sporty cats?

 

[flaming]

To be fair to cats Flaming we are discussing cruising situations and I do not need to tell you most racing is dependant upon upwind/downwind performance which is not most catamarans forte by any means.

No indeed. But look at the years with little or no beating. The cruising cats are still surprisingly slow.

Just had a look at the 2010 results. That race was a light airs spinnaker reach to the needles, a 2 sail reach to st kats, a one tack beat to Bembridge, then a gradually freeing reach to home. All in no more than 10 knots.

There was a Gunboat 66 taking part. Which beat Desperado, the Swan 65, home by just 23 minutes in 7 hours. It would be hard to imagine conditions that should more favour a high performance carbon fibre cruising cat over 30 odd tons of Swan. Other, smaller, Carbon Fibre monos were up to an hour faster than the Gunboat. I was only 40 minutes slower in a 37 foot cruiser racer.

And the more "affordable" cats didn't fair any better. A 40 foot cat was beaten home by every 40.7 bar 1, and the vast majority of cruising 40 footers as well.

There's absolutely no argument that the grand prix multis - the extremes, the AC45s and even the likes of the dragonflys are very, very fast. Way faster than similar sized monos. But put in cruising comforts, and that advantage just seems to evaporate.

 

[Koeketiene]

Having a deep and meaningful chat with a friend last night. he is totally opposed to sailing cats (non-furry variety) States they are a waste of time and sail like a dog (No pun intended). I sort of tend to agree with him BUT, do you know different ?

If cats really were any good, there would be more of them.

End of.

 

[Iain C]

It certainly did not seem to gnarly where that cat went over on the RTIR...

...and it it hit something and flipped, that's even more worrying!

I have sailed a cat a fair bit, and I agree, they are very spacious, and knowing that it stays fairly flat certainly makes "living" when you are sailing a lot easier. Throwing a fully inplated dinghy on the foredeck is a joy too.

But...for anyone who likes to call a gust, feel their mono heel over a bit, put more pressure through the helm, dig in and go in the gust, you just don't get that with a multi.

But for me, there's a bigger but. Or shall I say Butt...as in Butt Ugly. With very, very few excpetions cats really are bloody awful to look at!

 

[KellysEye]

>There was no way you were going to capsize it we tried very hard to over sheet it and the windward hull never lifted any appreciable amount.

Alll charter yachts (monos and cats) have a cut down rig, hence the poor performance but less scary for inexperienced charterers. Cruising cats also used to have shorter masts than the equivalent weight mono but I don't know if that is true now.

 

[Seajet]

To be fair to cats Flaming we are discussing cruising situations and I do not need to tell you most racing is dependant upon upwind/downwind performance which is not most catamarans forte by any means.

So what exactly are they good for, then ? Reaching to & fro with no progress, while the crew concentrate on not flipping ?!

I'd love to see a photo of that cruising cat hovering at her anchor like a kite, though maybe not so keen on being aboard - would make an excellent bar-room story though...

The 'roomy' aspect should be qualified too, lots of lateral space but headroom is another matter ( and a big cat at my club has a handy large hatch on the inside of a hull, presumably so people using the loo there can smile & wave to canoists etc going past...).

Overall, even beyond the inverting snag, it's the ghastly helm linkages & zero feel which put me off.

 

[sailorman]

If you search around this site you will find loads of threads discussing this comprehensively and generally accurately.

Basically, I'm afraid your friend is fundamentally wrong. Modern cats sail very well and in a long distance cruising context are at least as fast as a cruising monohull and many sportier cruising cats are considerably faster on all points (except dead downwind).

I am puzzled by your comments on accommodation. With two hulls and a vast bridgedeck to play with internal accommodation is bound to be huge for the length of the boat. However, cat accommodation should really be compared on the basis of area - length times beam. The big open saloon with all round visibility, huge, domestic sized galley, massive cockpit and extensive deck areas are all among the main attractions of cats. Other plus point include lack of heeling, no rolling at anchor, shallow draught, drying out abililty and 95 per cent unsinkability.

Of course there are downsides. The main one is the perceived risk of capsize. This is a hangover from the early days of cats and the behaviour of racing machines. A modern cruising cat is almost impossible to capsize and statistically there is more chance of a monohull sinking than a cat turning over.

Some people find the motion of cats difficult to cope with but this usually changes with familiarity. Cats are very easy to park but need more space and when it comes to marinas, space means money so cat owners tend to avoid them. However, if you know where to look you will find cat friendly marinas and, of course, moorings and anchorages generally cost the same. Many more anchorages are open to cat sailers because of their shallow draught and ability to take the ground.

Cats are, generally, less rewarding to sail than monos; there is less feed-back through the helm which is often hydraulic, and, since they run on rails, there is little twitching and nudging needed to optimise progress to windward. Almost invariably cats sail better under autopilot than human control. Cats require different trimming and reefing techniques but these are easily enough picked up.

These are a few of the salient points; there are many others.

Your ole mate Geoff bought one didnt he

 

[E39mad]

So what exactly are they good for, then ? Reaching to & fro with no progress, while the crew concentrate on not flipping ?!

I'd love to see a photo of that cruising cat hovering at her anchor like a kite, though maybe not so keen on being aboard - would make an excellent bar-room story though...

The 'roomy' aspect should be qualified too, lots of lateral space but headroom is another matter ( and a big cat at my club has a handy large hatch on the inside of a hull, presumably so people using the loo there can smile & wave to canoists etc going past...).

Overall, even beyond the inverting snag, it's the ghastly helm linkages & zero feel which put me off.

Ever sailed a well designed cruising catamaran?

I have and I was a staunch mono hull sailer/racer. Sailed a Freebird 50 twice - both times it sailed at over 10 knots - averaged over 12 in one - has the internal volume of a 70 footer and sailed very close to the wind. Under one 38hp engine did 8 knots and 10 knots under both. It didn't slam and there was feel via the rod linkage steering. My prejudges were smashed. As I said in an earlier post not all cats are the same just as not all monos are the same. BTW one of the boats I sailed on is for sale in NZ having covered over 100000 miles! Yachting World tested it in 1995 iirc

Would I have one of those over a 50 foot mono - Yes.

 

[Crabman]

Inshore racing like round the island I can see mono being faster due to all the traffic. Offshore a multi is faster. Jules Verne 49 days Trans atlantic multi, Mono hull record in one day? Multi hull in one day I think is 987 miles in 24 hours . Gunboat in 2011 fastnet 5th over the finsh line with a amatuer crew .
One persons ugly boat is another persons dream . Does it matter ? Nar

 

[Seajet]

Ever sailed a well designed cruising catamaran?

Yes, though the jury is still out on the 'well designed' bit !

My Anderson 22 ( 3 adults aboard, fully loaded cruising trim ) repeatedly went off the 10-knot stop on the log coming back from St Peter Port to Salcombe, not hairy sailing and we never worried about inverting and staying like it !

I would be downright astonished if a multihull could get anywhere near her feel on the helm, the best feature of the boat...

If I was stuck Robinson Crusoe-style on an island, I'd probably think of a cat or proa as a means of escape; until then, you enjoy your multi's, and I'll be a grumpy old git with mono's, ta !

 

[TonyMS]

All cats, like all monos, are compromises between speed and comfort. Buy a cat by, for instance, Darren Newton or Woods, and you can have exciting sailing and overhaul all the monos. But the accomodation on the smallest boats is a bit basic.

When cruising, the big difference is where you spend your nights. In a cat you can anchor in a rolly anchorage and get a good night's sleep. But you can't afford a marina berth! Monos roll your guts out, but you can afford the marina.

Tony MS

 

[Talbot]

It would appear to me that all the responses (other than JamesJ) have been using weekend/coastal sailing concepts in order to answer the OPs post concerning blue water cruising. That is not answering the question!

In order to provide the correct answer, you need to look at the exam question. How do you use the boat during blue water sailing.

1. Long distance multi/day sailing in trade winds

2. A higher proportion of the time at anchor than sailing

3. staying onboard for months.

4. best anchoring positions happen to be in shallow water

You will have to find some very good arguments to persuade me that a cruising catamaran does not tick a lot of these points. Yes a mono has more response on the helm - not a great argument when you are probably using the autohelm 24/7. As for comparative speed, most cruising cats need a bit of a blow to get them going. They are not optimised for speed, but for carrying capacity, and I accept that a comparative mono could carry more.

If you are having a party in an anchorage, is it going to be on a mono or on a cat?

As for the headroom. I am over 6ft and have lots of room everywhere in my boat. I also do not have to worry about getting clonked on the head by my boom.

As for coastal sailing comparisons. Sailing a cat is different to a mono, and needs to be understood. pinching is death, and freeing offf will allow enough additional speed to improve VMG.

As a direct comparison, try a gemini for coastal sailing, or my boat in bad weather conditions.

 

[flaming]

In order to provide the correct answer, you need to look at the exam question. How do you use the boat during blue water sailing.

1. Long distance multi/day sailing in trade winds

2. A higher proportion of the time at anchor than sailing

3. staying onboard for months.

4. best anchoring positions happen to be in shallow water

You will have to find some very good arguments to persuade me that a cruising catamaran does not tick a lot of these points.

I would agree with you, a cat is a very sensible option for those requirements. I was simply questioning the "cats are quicker than monos" statement early in the thread, as in my experience it doesn't stack up when you put the word "cruising" in front of cats and monos.

 

[Signed Out]

How adventurous?

Possibly relevant in the blue-water side of the topic, as it is surely part of this "sphere", is the aspect of going off the beaten track and to those latitudes that require a woolly jumper.

Having read a lot of saily adventures, magazines and so on, I cannot recall a single cat or tri being involved in this type of sailing. Can anyone point me/us in the direction of a multihull going into such territories?

Is it that the more adventurous are more conservative? Or is that self contradictory (no, I won't say oxymoron, as it's not a phrase, blah blah). Or are catamarans and tris not as suitable for those trips?


The most "adventurous" multi sailor I can think of is Rory McDougall (?), with "Cooking Fat", but that could be argued to only be down to the size of craft.

 

[chrisedwards]

I feel a sense of empathy with cat owners - they face the sort of in-built prejudice I often do when trying to explaing the virtues of junk rig to people who have strong opinions based upon very little experience.

I have felt prejudiced against cats for nearly half a century - where does it come from?

Now thanks to developing experience my ideal boat would be a junk rigged cat - mast on each hull. I genuinly believe this would be an ideal set up for most sailors I meet - whether ocean crossers or family potterers.

 

[Dockhead]

No indeed. But look at the years with little or no beating. The cruising cats are still surprisingly slow.

Just had a look at the 2010 results. That race was a light airs spinnaker reach to the needles, a 2 sail reach to st kats, a one tack beat to Bembridge, then a gradually freeing reach to home. All in no more than 10 knots.

There was a Gunboat 66 taking part. Which beat Desperado, the Swan 65, home by just 23 minutes in 7 hours. It would be hard to imagine conditions that should more favour a high performance carbon fibre cruising cat over 30 odd tons of Swan. Other, smaller, Carbon Fibre monos were up to an hour faster than the Gunboat. I was only 40 minutes slower in a 37 foot cruiser racer.

And the more "affordable" cats didn't fair any better. A 40 foot cat was beaten home by every 40.7 bar 1, and the vast majority of cruising 40 footers as well.

There's absolutely no argument that the grand prix multis - the extremes, the AC45s and even the likes of the dragonflys are very, very fast. Way faster than similar sized monos. But put in cruising comforts, and that advantage just seems to evaporate.

+1

I have never seen any evidence that average cruising cats are at all faster than average cruising monos, especially if you compare like for like -- which is not by length. Not only RTI race results, but ARC results over the years, confirm this.

A 45 foot cat is comparable in cost and accomodation to a 50 -- 53 foot mono. I believe that most 50 - 53 foot monos will be faster than most 45 foot cats except possibly on a beam reach.

I chartered a 45 foot cat for two weeks once just to see what it is like, a South African Norseman which was supposed to be a pretty good sailing cat. I was surprised that the performance was very modest on all points of sail, not to say plodding. The shallow draft was a very big plus -- this was in the Windward Islands -- as was the maneuverability resulting from having two engines.

Other than that, I think it is just a matter of taste, whether one prefers cats or monos. If you compare like for like -- like cost, like accomodations volume -- NOT like length -- I can't think of any particular objective advantage of cats, and certainly not performance.

 

[Tranona]

Having read a lot of saily adventures, magazines and so on, I cannot recall a single cat or tri being involved in this type of sailing. Can anyone point me/us in the direction of a multihull going into such territories?

That is probably because the advantages of a cat as described by talbot become less important for "adventure" type sailing. They are at their best in long distance trade wind type voyaging and as platforms for comfortable living in warm climates such as the Caribbean and the Med. That is why they are popular with charter operators and long distance liveaboards.

It is silly to try and compare cruising cats with lightweight racers such as Darts or Hobies - completely different animals. The only valid comparisons are between boats designed for similar purposes - but even then you are unlikely to get a clear "winner", but only a personal choice that takes into account your own assessment of the pluses and minuses. So if space, accommodation, ease of handling and lack of heeling are important to you, then you will have to accept the downsides of lack of excitement, higher berthing costs and arguably poorer aesthetics.