Single or Double ????

[Third mate]

Having a deep and meaningful chat with a friend last night. he is totally opposed to sailing cats (non-furry variety) States they are a waste of time and sail like a dog (No pun intended). I sort of tend to agree with him BUT, do you know different ?

I should say we were discussing bluewater cruising yachts not racing machines, also I can't seem to get my head round how the accomodation works in a cat even after looking at couple of websites.

Andy

War. Gods way of teaching americans geography

 

[E39mad]

I was in a similar mind until I sailed a properly designed cruising catamaran and talked to the designers. OK that was a 50 footer but it completely changed my prejudices (which I suspect is what your friend has without experiencing sailing a decent cat)

 

[Sandyman]

Could you give you & your friends reasons why ?

 

[Third mate]

Could you give you & your friends reasons why ?

Thats just the problem. We seem to have the impression that cats are not really sailing craft. On a recent charter most cat's seemed to be motoring and the sail areas appeared to be much smaller than on a mono, giving the impression that sailing a cat was a secondary method of propulsion.
Was hoping for a couple of cat experts could advise.

 

[Adonnante]

Having a deep and meaningful chat with a friend last night. he is totally opposed to sailing cats (non-furry variety)


Very wise choice, they don't go to windward and turnover at the drop of a hat and don't fit into marinas. We don't need anymore cluttering up the coast!

Peter

 

[jamesjermain]

If you search around this site you will find loads of threads discussing this comprehensively and generally accurately.

Basically, I'm afraid your friend is fundamentally wrong. Modern cats sail very well and in a long distance cruising context are at least as fast as a cruising monohull and many sportier cruising cats are considerably faster on all points (except dead downwind).

I am puzzled by your comments on accommodation. With two hulls and a vast bridgedeck to play with internal accommodation is bound to be huge for the length of the boat. However, cat accommodation should really be compared on the basis of area - length times beam. The big open saloon with all round visibility, huge, domestic sized galley, massive cockpit and extensive deck areas are all among the main attractions of cats. Other plus point include lack of heeling, no rolling at anchor, shallow draught, drying out abililty and 95 per cent unsinkability.

Of course there are downsides. The main one is the perceived risk of capsize. This is a hangover from the early days of cats and the behaviour of racing machines. A modern cruising cat is almost impossible to capsize and statistically there is more chance of a monohull sinking than a cat turning over.

Some people find the motion of cats difficult to cope with but this usually changes with familiarity. Cats are very easy to park but need more space and when it comes to marinas, space means money so cat owners tend to avoid them. However, if you know where to look you will find cat friendly marinas and, of course, moorings and anchorages generally cost the same. Many more anchorages are open to cat sailers because of their shallow draught and ability to take the ground.

Cats are, generally, less rewarding to sail than monos; there is less feed-back through the helm which is often hydraulic, and, since they run on rails, there is little twitching and nudging needed to optimise progress to windward. Almost invariably cats sail better under autopilot than human control. Cats require different trimming and reefing techniques but these are easily enough picked up.

These are a few of the salient points; there are many others.

 

[Crabman]

http://www.gunboat.com/tea_vid.php Double yes please.

 

[Seajet]

A point being missed here I think is how REWARDING are catamarans to sail ?!

I had a Dart 18 and had to keep telling myself 'we're going really fast' as there was no sensation or feedback; the linkage to 2 rudders hardly helps.

There was also the worry of pitchpoling, with expensive consequences for a young penniless git ( broken battens alone would be a small fortune ) and the real possibility of injuries to crew, or much more importantly, self !

One of the major benefits of racing dinghies is that unlike racing cars etc, one can drive the thing well over the limit, and the worst that will happen is getting wet; I feel cat's don't have that facility.

I capsized my Dart once, it was a serious pain to recover ( I know the stand on a stern trick ) and in the F6-7 of the time, it went so fast downwind on it's side we were lucky to catch it !

I had FAR more fun covered in spray in monohull racing dinghies like Ospreys & Scorpions, they spoke to me...

This, coupled with the scenes from that Greek anchorage recently where a large cruising cat was inverted at anchor, convince me to stay mono, ta very much !

 

[jamesjermain]

Thats just the problem. We seem to have the impression that cats are not really sailing craft. On a recent charter most cat's seemed to be motoring and the sail areas appeared to be much smaller than on a mono, giving the impression that sailing a cat was a secondary method of propulsion.
Was hoping for a couple of cat experts could advise.

We multihull sailers refer to monos as 'half-boats', mono sailers call us 'rafters'. All good clean fun.

I suspect, but I don't know, that many charter cats have reduced rigs. Certainly they have lousy sails and are usually hopelessly overweight. I've never chartered a cat that has sailed to its full potential.

Keeping a cat light isn't just a good idea it's fundamental to its performance as is a good set of sails probably a grade more high tech than you would choose for a well equipped mono.

Cat rigs are often smaller than an equivalent length mono because cats are much lighterand more easily driven. Rember that cat hulls are so slim they do not suffer from wave resistence in the same way as monos and have no theoretical maximum displacement speed. Modern cat rigs tend to have a very large, big-roached, fully battened main and a comparatively small jib. Down-wind and light-wind sails are easily added and set either of a short bowsprit or flown of one bow. With huge foredecks and very little rolling, spis and cruising chutes are very easy to handle.

You probably see charter cats motoring because that's what charter boats do whatever - don't want nasty flappy things creating shadows and spoiling the tan!. Also, with twin diesels, a 40ft cat can motor at 10 plus knots at two thirds throttle.

 

[jamesjermain]

This, coupled with the scenes from that Greek anchorage recently where a large cruising cat was inverted at anchor, convince me to stay mono, ta very much !

I haven't heard of this, can you given me details?

 

[Simondjuk]

A modern cruising cat is almost impossible to capsize and statistically there is more chance of a monohull sinking than a cat turning over.

The capsized cruising cat and capsized cruiser/racer trimaran I witnessed during this year's Round the Island Race tend to tell me otherwise.

 

[Sandyman]

''Of course there are downsides. The main one is the perceived risk of capsize. This is a hangover from the early days of cats and the behaviour of racing machines. A modern cruising cat is almost impossible to capsize and statistically there is more chance of a monohull sinking than a cat turning over. ''

Really ?

Recent events in Vliho would say otherwise.

 

[Seajet]

This, coupled with the scenes from that Greek anchorage recently where a large cruising cat was inverted at anchor, convince me to stay mono, ta very much !

I haven't heard of this, can you given me details?

James,

see here, in case the link doesn't work properly it's on the 'Liveaboard' forum, 'Vliho Squall'...

Default Vliho squall
This catamaran capsized at the height of the squall trapping one female in the cabin, showing great bravery Ruari Bradley swam into the upturned hull and rescued the woman ....
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version Name: Vliho Bay righting the cat 001.jpg Views: 0 Size: 96.9 KB ID: 13735 Click image for larger version Name: Vliho Bay 002.jpg Views: 0 Size: 95.4 KB ID: 13736
Last edited by lefkasman; 07-10-11 at 12:56. Reason: updated information

 

[Sandyman]

Here http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287823

 

[Scillypete]

There will always be those determined to put down whatever plusses there are for Cats and they are entitled to their opinion, may they enjoy their suffering from rolling and bouncing around mono style in blissful ignorance of what catamaran sailing has to offer.

If I could afford one I would be buying another cat today without hesitation. Not very helpful with the discussion but I think James has that covered.

 

[jamesjermain]

FAir enough, this is a shocking tragedy. However, quoting one capsize, or even four...eight...16 doesn't alter the overall statistics. I could quote any number of individual instances of monos sinking from causes ranging from sailing under to capsize to whale strike, fridge strike, container strike, collision, break-up etc.

The cat in question here may have capsized (the conditions must have been horrendous), but it didn't sink. A mono blown on to its beam ends could have righted itself or it might have down-flooded and sunk.

 

[Simondjuk]

The conditions don't have to be horrendous though. The cruising cat that went over in the RTI did so in a F6 and a modest chop. It then went on to do a pretty decent impression of sinking. Just saying.

 

[Talbot]

The conditions don't have to be horrendous though. The cruising cat that went over in the RTI did so in a F6 and a modest chop. It then went on to do a pretty decent impression of sinking. Just saying.

I would not classify the Scott Bader as a cruising catamaran. Furthermore, there is good evidence that they hit something at some considerable speed, and this caused the inversion.

The Prout that inverted in the recent storm, is a much narrower cat than modern boats, but the evidence would suggest that this was not a capsize, but a pitchpole due to the wind, and yes there has been evidence of others that have inverted when the wind got under the bow while the boat was at anchor. A privilege 39 did this in Grenada a few years ago. Mind you it was blowing over 135 mph at the time.

Does this concern me (Privilege 37 owner) of course it does. However a risk assessment allows the trade off of much better accomodation, and much better downwind sailing with this risk, and I am very happy to sail my vessel.

 

[snowleopard]

The conditions don't have to be horrendous though. The cruising cat that went over in the RTI did so in a F6 and a modest chop. It then went on to do a pretty decent impression of sinking. Just saying.

A fairly light cat with too much canvas for the conditions can be flipped but you have to drive it really hard to do that. In cruising situations it doesn't happen. Cases of cruising cats going over are very rare. One example from a few years ago was a Heavenly Twins (26 ft) going over in a F12 west of the Outer Hebrides. A 26 ft mono in the same conditions would be as much at risk.

As far as performance is concerned, most modern cats will outsail cruising monos of the same length. A racing mono will beat a cruising cat to windward but on any other point of sailing will struggle to keep up.

For long distance cruising a cat will get there faster every time. When I took part in the ARC I covered 2900 miles in 15 days 6 hours. In a fleet of 220 boats we were home ahead of every mono of the same size or less.

If you go for a heavier older boat your performance may be poor compared to a mono of the same size but modern boats will make faster passages than equivalent monos.

You will very rarely find any of the 'cats are rubbish' brigade who have any serious multihull experience but almost all multihull fans have extensive mono experience. Figure why that is.

As for the sensation of speed, yes, you get less in the cockpit of a cat but who needs leaning over and getting wet to enjoy sailing?

 

[nickd]

We chartered a Lagoon 38 cat in Northern Sicily this year, this is a cat designed for charter, maximum living space no real thought to sailing performance. It was a complete nail up wind, great sail on a reach or run. There was no way you were going to capsize it we tried very hard to over sheet it and the windward hull never lifted any appreciable amount.
So I guess with all other sailing boats its a compromise nad if you want to go very lightwieght and stacks of cloth for performance you can run the risk of a capsize - everyone makes a choice on what they are comfortable with.