SIBS 17

[Resolution]

Wow. About 20000 miles and never sailed a dinghy. How did I do it??

Ditto. "Think big" can be a good motto for life.

 

[Seajet]

My comment about dinghy sailing first was slightly tongue in cheek as I knew it would get a response from the clueless types whose first and final move would be to invert a responsive dinghy, and just have no idea what I'm referring to.

There are notable exceptions who started on big yachts, like Sir Francis Chichester; but he was a great navigator, not a great sailor ( and maybe not great pilot either ).

As a comparison a fighter pilot can easiliy fly an airliner, but not vice versa.

A fast dinghy is so responsive to wind, crew and sail trim it teaches one a whole different ball game - one example is that until recently Centaurs were thought to sail badly because they were usually sailed by novices with no experience ' through the dinghy ranks ' - now experienced dinghy sailors get hold of them, the boats are showing their worth.

 

[Malo37]

I've sold my big expensive boat, mainly because my crew has slowly disappeared for various reasons. Now I notice many largish boats, around 40 ft or more, languishing in various marinas for the same reason, there is nobody to sail them. Solitary owners, or sometimes with reluctant wives, using nice boats as weekend cottages and going home on Sunday evening having done nothing at all. I think the industry has done a good job of persuading us to buy boats that are far too big.
Maybe the solution is to downsize to something that is easily sailed single handed and maybe even trailerable to new waters ?

 

[bedouin]

I've sold my big expensive boat, mainly because my crew has slowly disappeared for various reasons. Now I notice many largish boats, around 40 ft or more, languishing in various marinas for the same reason, there is nobody to sail them. Solitary owners, or sometimes with reluctant wives, using nice boats as weekend cottages and going home on Sunday evening having done nothing at all. I think the industry has done a good job of persuading us to buy boats that are far too big.
Maybe the solution is to downsize to something that is easily sailed single handed and maybe even trailerable to new waters ?

I am considering a similar approach - either a small (21-25ft) weekender or large dinghy/dayboat. Both types were pretty conspicuous by their absence at SIBS

 

[maby]

I am considering a similar approach - either a small (21-25ft) weekender or large dinghy/dayboat. Both types were pretty conspicuous by their absence at SIBS

Swallow and Cornish Crabber both had nice day boats on display. Swallow are, reportedly trailerable. Lovely little boats but too small for a live aboard.

 

[tigr]

Just came back from the show. That is the earliest I've every been back. I think I went round every stand, there seemed to be a lot missing. There were very few on the stands that were welcoming but it was very cold. The show just lacked buzz. The children were bored as dispite what they say the events were aimed at the very young. And not many freebies to fill their bags. Only upside was meeting Dave Selby again and getting ripped off buying his book (don't mean it Dave, thanks for a good chat!)

 

[Tranona]

As opposed to those who have learned on a larger boat and totally lack experience of doing it any other way. So are simply not qualified to have an opinion, as you see it also gives them a sense of undeserved superiority

Since no one can have experience of both no one can be qualified to comment one way or the other - so I shall carefully avoid doing so.

Very pleased somebody got the point!

 

[Seajet]

Not sure what point that is; I suspect I could handle your cruiser rather more easiliy than you'd have a chance in my Osprey dinghy, and for a performance boat it's a remarkably forgiving design...

So I'm used to tacking within inches of marks and precision handling - inc to an only slightly lesser degree on the A22 - and using my and crew's, luggage weight etc for optimum trim - I rather doubt people who've learned to sail on the equivalent of a lorry have the same empathy.

 

[Tranona]

Not sure what point that is; I suspect I could handle your cruiser rather more easiliy than you'd have a chance in my Osprey dinghy, and for a performance boat it's a remarkably forgiving design...

As it happens I owned an Osprey for a couple of years and learned nothing that I did not know already about sailing my cruiser. Learned a bit about Ospreys, but nothing specific that was transferrable directly to the heavy long keeled cruiser i had at the time.

I have absolutely no problem handling my current cruiser single handed. Other than having sails on top of a hull it has little in common with an Osprey.

And the point is - there is no point in you and others continually banging on about the necessity of sailing in dinghies in order to sail other types of boats and particularly not claiming (as you are now doing) that you would be "better" at it.

Just accept that people approach sailing in different ways and these are often mutually exclusive, so you have experienced only one way - so how can you comment on the effectiveness of other ways?

That is why I never say it is "better" to NOT sail dinghies - just observing that it is not a prerequisite to effectively sailing cruisers.

 

[zoidberg]

There are notable exceptions who started on big yachts, like Sir Francis Chichester; but he was a great navigator, not a great sailor ( and maybe not great pilot either ).
As a comparison a fighter pilot can easiliy fly an airliner, but not vice versa.

As I recall, Sir Francis Chichester 'wrote the book' on air navigation ( AP3456 - Flying - Vol G - Air Navigation ) and flying, defining The Rules for lesser mortals, but was such a life-long and stubborn maverick he then promptly broke each of them. More than once. The ( probably ) apocryphal story goes that he was summoned for a stand-up interview at the Ministry of Aviation regarding yet another piece of hooligan flying, and told "You're too damned famous for us to ground you for that, but YOU WILL NOT PASS YOUR NEXT FLYING MEDICAL!"

He took up sailing.

The rest is history.


As for the fighter pilot flying an airliner, many of them do 'change horses in mid-stream' ( mid-career ) but it takes a lot of expensive re-training. And, lest we forget, the same 'sharpy' fighter pilot served his 2-year apprenticeship on rather small and slow airyplanes, where mistakes could still result in a solid 'clunk' on the head. This was usually delivered by the Qualified Flying Instructor sitting behind, equipped with a classroom wooden ruler and a penchant for marking mistakes by delivering a swift 'wooden reprimand' on the ear'ole.

I'm not aware that's an RYA-approved teaching method, but it seemed to work.

 

[Seajet]

Let's see how the Airbus bod gets on in an F-16 or vice versa...

If one learns nothing from sailing an Osprey compared to a Bavaria, it may be time to go into a darkened room with a revolver and Do The Gentlemany Thing.

 

[Muddy32]

I had rather wanted to hear what to see/visit later this week not hear drivel about how to learn about sailing.
One thing folk forget is that the number of available boats is increasing all the time , few GRP boats become "dead" after a few years, needing replacement. A bit like people, - too many and we can't afford them.

 

[weustace]

To return the topic to SIBS, I must beg to differ on the availability of smaller boats: out in the front (first island, as it were, before crossing over the footbridges towards the pontoons) there were a selection of boats that meet this description ranging from some very pretty half-deckers (e.g. Stir Ven 19 was on display, looking much like a more modern version of the Rebel One Design I learned to sail on, although without a Gunther rig) and large dinghies to the delightful looking and amazingly capacious Wind Hunter 19 (http://www.szkuner-ket.pl/en/our-offer/wind-hunter-19 ), modelled after the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter. Crossing over the first footbridge to some of the heavier stuff, another Polish boat caught my eye--the Viko 26, again very nicely fitted out and built, though a little pricier... Opposite it, though I didn't look over it this year, was a Legend of about the same size, sitting up on its twin keels. Also on this side was the Hartley stand, containing a variety of Wayfarers and similar cruising dinghies; on the pontoons themselves, there were small sailing boats ranging from the Cornish Shrimper/Crabber series to (for the rather flusher sailor) the Tofinou 7 and similar. Also exhibiting was a J/80 or similar, which is very much a 21-25ft dayboat... I had a chat with the UK distributor of Dragonfly trimarans, whom I have met on several occasions at his base and last year at SIBS; he had been keeping busy apparently!

I sometimes wonder whether those who post along the lines of "Boat Show is Going to the Dogs" (every single year) have actually visited...is it a surprise that London has fewer yachts than ever, when every year forums like this ring with cries of "I'm so happy I didn't go" and "What a waste of money"! For the yachtsman looking for a second-hand boat, I peered inquisitively at a couple of stalls specialising in their sale, but one mustn't expect them to be widely exhibited: somebody has to pay for a stall, or pontoon space, and a team to man the exhibit. Why would anyone bother with second-hand boats when these are widely bought and sold already--it's not exactly a market that needs creating, whereas SIBS and its ilk give some people enough of a push to buy that first sailing holiday, or to put down a deposit on anything ranging from an RS Tera to an Oyster...For me this year it was a good day out at least!

 

[Blue Sunray]

Just came back from the show. That is the earliest I've every been back. I think I went round every stand, there seemed to be a lot missing. There were very few on the stands that were welcoming but it was very cold. The show just lacked buzz. The children were bored as dispite what they say the events were aimed at the very young. And not many freebies to fill their bags. Only upside was meeting Dave Selby again and getting ripped off buying his book (don't mean it Dave, thanks for a good chat!)

It was rather chilly which didn't help with 'the buzz'. I did find it amusing that whilst there were a few 'kiddie' stands the main attraction for children of all ages seems to be getting an alien from Fusion, I reckon there was an opportunity for a secondary market there. It did get warmer later but that 'last quick look round' did result in the transfer of a chunk of money from my account to Garmin's.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Same way as others. Nothing difficult about learning to sail on bigger boats, or later in life.

The only people who say you need to sail dinghies first to be capable are those who did it that way. They totally lack experience of doing it any other way so are simply not qualified to have an opinion. as you see it also gives them a sense of undeserved superiority!

In my experience people who have sailed dinghies first tend to be more sensitive to wind shifts. It's not invariably the case, of course, but you can get away with more in a bigger boat and it tends to show.

 

[JasperII]

I find it amazing how often the subject comes up on this forum about the future of sailing dying off, not enough new people coming into sailing etc etc.

Is it surprising when you look at a post like this? I feel embarrassed for some of the people posting!

I sailed dinghies for a couple of years before buying our first yacht. Did it make any difference? I don't think so - for me personally.

Everyone is different, everyone learns differently. This is a post about the boat show - not a competition about who's the best sailor.

I couldn't really care less whether I could spend my whole time trimming sails perfectly get get an extra 0.5 knots. The main thing is getting out there and sailing.

Would anybody new to sailing really want to go to the boat show to hang around with a bunch of blokes trying to out do each other on their incredible sailing ability?

Can we just move on from this drivel?

I personally can't wait for the boat show next Sunday.

I think it's a great end to the boating season, I love looking around the nice brand new boats I will never be able to afford, and get a few things from the chandlers etc.

 

[ashtead]

Also looking forward to going as now have my free tickets and always find some stands where you can look at and discuss an extra or two. Clearly there are also some lovely vessel,s to view. I am rather tempted to look around a Princess this year just to see how true to life the new video isBTW . lets just hope weather stays fair for rest of week. My one complaint is poor quality of eateries but maybe I just haven't search hard enough but after all these years you would think they could just have a decent Pret or suchlike .
Any views on new yachts to view this year ?

 

[grumpy_o_g]

As a comparison a fighter pilot can easiliy fly an airliner, but not vice versa...

In terms of ability to control the aircraft it's actually the other way round. Truckies find it far easier to fly fast jets than jet jockeys find it to fly heavies. Doesn't mean a truckie would make a good fighter pilot of course 'cos there's a whole other set of skills involved.

 

[Tranona]

In my experience people who have sailed dinghies first tend to be more sensitive to wind shifts. It's not invariably the case, of course, but you can get away with more in a bigger boat and it tends to show.

A very small part of cruising, and a skill that is not exclusive to dinghy sailors. As I said elsewhere, actual sailing and particularly squeezing performance out of the boat (particularly as you don't have to worry about it falling over) is only one aspect of successful cruising - and you don't have to sail a dinghy to learn what is important.

 

[ylop]

The sailing magazines who put these forums up are going straight down the tubes, partly because printed media is failing, but also because they fail to connect with their die-hard followers, instead featuring fancy big new boats few of us are interested in let alone can afford - and fence sitting ' mustn't get sued ' reviews.

I don't think there is any real risk of getting sued. The reality is the price of the mag covers its print and distribution costs. Advertisers are where the money is. Articles that fail to say it as it really is, are more likely worried about losing the advert revenue or that the vendor will no longer offer boats (etc) for testing [on one level that is bad for the mag as it needs a stream of stuff to write about - on a more cynical level it is bad for the journo's as they need toys to play with].

We need a real boat show, with dinghies and smaller cruisers - this may well involve secondhand boats - as well as the silly expensive new large jobs; no sailor worth their salt didn't do their time first on dinghies, and people on moderate incomes need to know there's a way to realise their dreams without a lottery win.

Is there any sense on trying to appeal to both* markets? If I am looking to buy a dinghy or cheap trailer sailer with a budget of < £10k, I am not going to buy a £100k yacht instead, and vice versa. There is already a dinghy show. There are second hand boat shows. They attract a specific audience, with much smaller footfall, but that is a keen audience. Be under no illusions, the boat shows are self serving, they don't exist either to support the public or the industry. Even a small stand will cost thousands - you need to sell a several dinghies to cover the cost of the floor space, the transport costs for the demo boats, the stand graphics, the staff, the travel and accom etc. If you sell shiny expensive yachts you may only need to sell one!

Actually the worst type of visitor are boat owners who just want a nosey around. We might buy a few hundred pounds of accessories but actually the cost and availability of internet goods means I don't need to wait and see if there is a special offer on, or to find something my local chandler doesn't stock.