lustyd
Well-Known Member
No issue at all, they deployed them at the Nab recently. Just transmits from any local antenna with position info.
Should we be alarmed? Proposed removal 350 navigational buoys USA North East.
- Thread starter harry potter
- Start date
lustyd
Well-Known Member
I never said that. I have multiple systems on board. What I said was that I don’t assume the plotter is wrong because (yet again) a buoy is incorrect.
No, you gave two experiences and some rambling. None of which were examples of GNSS issues. You don’t seem to have answered the question of where it was that you found an anomaly or if you reported it.
I check in various ways. In the case of Dublin duplicate light sequences I reported it and it was subsequently corrected. In all cases I mentioned I verified that the buoy was in the wrong place or the wrong buoy was deployed using the latest charts and NTMs or through CG.
I’ve had plotters and VHF lose GPS signal, usually some fat arse sitting on the deck mounted antenna. I’ve had charts disappear on plotters, usually corroded chart cards. I’ve seen low voltage issues due to dodgy batteries. None of these on my boat and always installation or usage issues which could be avoided easily. All also easily checked with a second source like a phone.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Perfectly happy to discuss any subject. Especially when I seem to be the only one critically thinking it through rather than emotionally responding based on engrained bias. I built a career on challenging the status quo, it’s surprising how resistant to change a lot of folk are, and how many “experts” are just broken records who never thought to change anything after their training.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
The whole country is currently struggling with 20mph limits and cameras have not stopped speeding in any scenario. New cars require speed limiters across UK and EU because we’re working towards removing speed signs in favour of automatic speed limiters. It’s a slow process but yes, some road signs will be phased out eventually. Beyond that, self driving cars will make other signs obsolete in the longer term.Think of all the money that could be saved by doing away with all the millions of road signs for direction, destinations, speed limits, potentially even parking restrictions, etc., now that most have satnavs.
ylop
Well-Known Member
Maybe you need to read the thread again.
ylop
Well-Known Member
The ability to deploy them at the Nab is not proof on an ability to deploy anywhere on UK coastline. Whose transmitter did they use to the Nab? I am assuming Trinity House already have AIS transmitters in the vicinity and it’s an easy job to say “add these additional transmissions”. Is that the case everywhere? My point was it might be technologically simple to do that anywhere there is CG VHF coverage but are there cooperative arrangements in place to do that?
SaltyC
Well-Known Member
If only everyone had AIS and multiple devices to counter faikure of a device (failure of vudeo card in my case) no doubt you will attribute that to poor maintenance and couldn't happen on your boat. However all devices rely in one signal source. Buoys rely on 2 - a left eye and a right eye
, position can often be checked with a hand bearing compass.No one denies AIS wreck markers can be deployed quickly and in the Solent 90% of traffic have AIS but not all.
However, can you imagine entering Portsmouth or the Orwell where you have to leave the Red buoys to Starboard (quite close) 'we' looking at buoys, checkung tidal flow as we pass, aware of the considerable small craft traffic which we dodge who appear ubaware of whats going on. In the meantime, you are staring at a screen to ensure you obey the rules - unaware of all tge vessels who are avoiding you as you steer the little boat on the screen.
No one has denied electronics are useful, make life easier, however they are not infallible. You need awareness and 'out of date / unneccessary skills to keep safe in the event of a failure.
The electronics should be our servant not us theirs.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Well, they’ve been deployed in many locations so I guess so. Any specific reason to believe otherwise?
lustyd
Well-Known Member
The people using the physical buoys at Portsmouth are usually on the wrong side of them. Those using a plotter can see the small boat channel so are usually on the correct side. So yes, I can imagine that beautiful scenario where people start using the small boat channel correctly.
ylop
Well-Known Member
No if I ask questions here I generally am looking to gain knowledge. Is the ability for someone sitting in Edinburgh or London to deploy an AIS virtual AtN almost anywhere in the UK already a thing? Do they use HMCG transmitters or is there an independent network of NLB and Trinity Ho transmitters? Do the harbours authorities have the same arrangements?
Is it incorrect to sail outside the small boat channel if you don’t require the draft of the channel.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Yes, local bylaw requires small boats to be in that small boat channel and on the other side of the buoy if going in that direction. There is a reason, line of sight to Balast pile inside the harbour is what defines the small boat channel from the outer buoys.
Most use the buoys and end up on the wrong side when exiting the harbour.
Portsmouth is a funny place though, people also use the markers for the sub-marine barrier gap even at high water, with 4m+ tide above something several metres down at low water. Tom Cunliffe famously said he does despite knowing he doesn’t need to
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
This muddled 'reasoning' exemplifies my post 56.
I don't need to go down all of your rabbit holes as they are not central to my point.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Not sure what the point is then. I was simply trying to determine if your scenario was GNSS issues as everyone seems so worried about or your own issues. If I had let my charts get wet and oily then I wouldn’t blame the Admiralty. I certainly wouldn’t then insist on mitigations in case I can’t navigate with my shagged charts at a cost of hundreds of millions of pounds to be paid for by ships who don’t need them.
SaltyC
Well-Known Member
Your first sentence is an uncorrobirated assumption to justify worshipping at the temple of electronics.
I Appreciate Laje Solent is not my manor and to be avoided as much as possible. I find sailing difficult having had an arm and a leg removed to pay for a single night in a packed marina. In line with my black and white charts in fathoms and feet I prefer a quiet anchorage which I will begrudgingly share with one or two others.
I may be out of date, however pilot books and instructors always stated outside or as close as possible to the Red laterals entering or leaving, col regs cover other approaching small vessels. Technically you are near centre of the main channel as you approach blockhouse fort - are you going to argue with a departing Brittany Ferries since you are in the 'small boat channel'?
Perhaps those near the lateral marks are following the spirit of the rules (& self presevation) whilst those going down the middle of the channel are technically in the small boat channel but still a problem for ferries?
Alternatively, they do 'electronic' nav and don't have a pilot book or don't believe they are a 'small' boat, that surely is the little day boats.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
As a local I can confirm it's completely untrue. (Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the general debate.)
westhinder
Well-Known Member
That of course applies just as well to virtual AIS buoys: if the bottom has shifted and the virtual buoy not yet moved you might also go aground.
There is another aspect that you completely ignore and that is situational awareness. Seeing a snaking line of buoys gives you a clear indication of where you’re going to, whereas if you had to rely only on virtual buoys you wouldn’t have a clue and you would have to just slavishly sail your boat icon across the screen. And hope your screen doesn’t go on the blink or the transmitter doesn’t fail for whatever reason.
Marsali_1
Well-Known Member
In another thread he acknowledges, indirectly, doing just that. Something to do with avoiding buoys in a fog in Chichester Harbour. The radar targets turned out to be birds.
Supertramp
Well-Known Member
And you need a robust error free system for updating AIS targets. Very easy to mistype something and end up with a wrong placed target due to clerical error.
The Trinity House guys with a buoy at least add situational awareness to the process.
There is no argument here - you choose how you want to navigate your vessel from the technical aids available to you plus your own experience and that you learn from others.
S04
Well-Known Member
I don't see any likely conflict between ferries and small vessels leaving or entering Portsmouth if the adherence to the small boat channel is respected.
The yacht in the picture is nowhere near the small boat channel and is certainly a potential problem for ferries. She had come out of Hornet and her track on Marinetraffic showed her heading straight into the main channel having come out of Haslar Creek. No attempt to follow the small boat channel.
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Mark-1
Well-Known Member
I pride myself on taking the p1ss in and out of Portsmouth, but that really is another level!
