Should we be alarmed? Proposed removal 350 navigational buoys USA North East.

SaltIre said:
Assuming, of course, the mark is on-station. At West Highland Week, the race committee used a southerly cardinal mark off Kerrera as a mark of the course. Only one boat sank, after several hit the rock the mark was supposed to be marking but wasn't because it was off-station.
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There is no point in buoyage if it isn't well mantained and on station. Which can presumably be monitored by GPS! Navtex and coastguard broadcasts refer to them.

Pre GPS we would use solid bits of land or above water rocks as fixes in fog, approaching on a "safe" bearing. Locating a buoy is much harder than finding a steep to shore.

An off position buoy is a real liability and even more so in fair conditions in waters you know and may not be using plotters etc.
 
SaltIre said:
Assuming, of course, the mark is on-station. At West Highland Week, the race committee used a southerly cardinal mark off Kerrera as a mark of the course. Only one boat sank, after several hit the rock the mark was supposed to be marking but wasn't because it was off-station.
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When was that then?
Bit of an "oops" to have a dangerously off station buoy at Kerrera, of all places, almost within sight of the Northern Lights Board main base for their two buoy maintenance vessels in Oban!
 
dunedin said:
A while ago then :-) Somewhat pre GPS as well.
Still an oops at Northern Lights base
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GPS was introduced for military use in the 70’s. It was available for the “public” in 1993 - but with selective availability … ironically it could have been early use of GPS that put it in the wrong place!
 
lustyd said:
Sorry but times when GPS let me down:0
Times when buoyage let me down >10

I’ve had no buoy, wrong buoy, two buoys, same light pattern and colour in a single harbour (Dublin, so far from trivial), buoy in wrong place, buoy in dangerous place, buoy on admiralty ship being replaced.

Perhaps I pay more attention than most, but buoys have been utterly hopeless. I’ve yet to have a single issue with GPS despite sailing in military areas often.
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That's exactly the point! You're a responsible and knowledgeable sailor. Whilst our hobby is unregulated, and has no requirement of seaworthiness or competency at our level, then all possible aids must be left in place for 'Sid & Doris 1/2 wit' in the 'trailer-sailer' that they won in a raffle, up to HMS Astute, to illustrate that even the most trained need help. It is far more likely as well that a boat will have an instrument problem, be it a flat battery or water ingress, than a buoy will be in the wrong place. I've never seen that actually, but don't doubt your experience. Pretty much everyone here is a competent yottie, but the most help is needed by those who aren't, who in turn will need the most costly help by helicopter at £5k/hour say.....
Anyway, your tale of the buoy in Dublin is from a Xmas cracker isn't it!
 
Maybe Sid n Dorris would get some training if someone took the metaphorical bowling alley bumpers away ? More likely if they are so incompetent though they don’t know why they are different colours etc anyway so if their boat gps along with their phone fail they aren’t going to revert to classical navigation they’ve never learned.

I think the risk of an electronic problem taking out all the gps sources on board but leaving you with a mechanism to understand the bouyage (ie some sort of chart) in any waters you are not so familiar with not to need the bouys is far less that the risk of a bouy being off station (if your read NTMs, which Sid n Dorris don’t, you’ll know that this is not rare) or having been moved to reflect a change in sea bed (which means it is no longer definitive proof of lat lon).

Anyone who remembers updating charts will recall bouyage changing. Perhaps I am actually Sid because whilst I do carry paper charts I can’t recall when I last updated them.
 
ylop said:
Anyone who remembers updating charts will recall bouyage changing. Perhaps I am actually Sid because whilst I do carry paper charts I can’t recall when I last updated them.
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I’m not convinced many people ever updated charts outside of those required to do so. We only do it now because it’s fully automated.
 
Despite growing up on paper charts (with amendments!), GPS and the associated charts are my primary navigation system. Especially useful is the ability to instantly access detail and to see exactly where you are at night.

But I still value the confirmation of a buoy or light where it should be and doing what it should at night.

Interestingly there are more weather buoys now - I "discovered" M2 one night in the Irish Sea a few years ago - and the wind speed/swell height info is useful.

To only use a Google Maps style of navigation that works on land is a false security - the sea (and seabed), weather and boats are more complex and you cannot stop and ask the way.
 
Supertramp said:
But I still value the confirmation of a buoy or light where it should be and doing what it should at night.
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And if it’s a different buoy than you were expecting or in a different position, what then? My money is on ignore it and trust GPS regardless. How many in that position would honestly stop the boat to find position the old fashioned way and assume GPS was wrong?
 
lustyd said:
And if it’s a different buoy than you were expecting or in a different position, what then? My money is on ignore it and trust GPS regardless. How many in that position would honestly stop the boat to find position the old fashioned way and assume GPS was wrong?
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Because the vast majority of navigation buoys and lights are in place for me, and confirm my passage. I agree that GPS is the powerful primary tool.

My point was that it is good practice to not rely on one device or navigational aid and that buoys and marks are reassuring and useful.

That said, I have no doubt that some reduction and rationalisation could be done in the US and here but hopefully by sailors and not accountants.
 
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They only confirm your place if they are correct and as expected, hence the question above of what, if you’re being honest with yourself, would you do if it wasn’t as expected?
I know that I trust the GPS in that scenario, been there and done it many times in the past year alone when the many buoys were not as expected. Hence my position that the buoys aren’t as useful as most think.

Whether it’s your primary or not, if you immediately abandon it when it doesn’t agree with you then it’s of no genuine use. If you trust the buoys and stop the boat to investigate then there is some utility in them, I just don’t think many actually would.
 
lustyd said:
They only confirm your place if they are correct and as expected, hence the question above of what, if you’re being honest with yourself, would you do if it wasn’t as expected?
I know that I trust the GPS in that scenario, been there and done it many times in the past year alone when the many buoys were not as expected. Hence my position that the buoys aren’t as useful as most think.

Whether it’s your primary or not, if you immediately abandon it when it doesn’t agree with you then it’s of no genuine use. If you trust the buoys and stop the boat to investigate then there is some utility in them, I just don’t think many actually would.
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Understand your point.

My next step would be to further validate my position using depth, landmarks and if in use my dead reckoning position. I would of course ignore the buoy if wrong. But I would check just in case my GPS (or the chart overlay it shows on) was inaccurate.

On a passage of many hours I keep a position plot every hour (or 30 mins when near obstacles) using an independent GPS position from my AIS unit. Must be an age thing but belt, braces and elastic works for me! Plus a second pair of trousers....
 
Fair enough, I think you may be alone in being so thorough (or fantasising about the RYA books 🤣) I do imagine some people would do that stuff but I think it’s extremely rare these days.

To be fair, we only went to the Hebredes and back this year so could probably have done that without any nav equipment on board, mostly just following the coast or aiming for another.
 
lustyd said:
To be fair, we only went to the Hebredes and back this year so could probably have done that without any nav equipment on board, mostly just following the coast or aiming for another.
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Which is where I started from 50 yrs ago......

Important thing is to learn from experience and technology and decide what you are happy with.

Just leave some buoys and lighthouses for me please!🤶
 
It seems that virtual wreck marker buoys have been used for the nab tower container incident so I suggest people get used to the idea!
38/2025 Sunken Containers
Pye_End said:
Beware making judgements based purely on your own experience.
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Why? Most here are using assumptions rather than experience. What’s your personal experience? I can’t imagine uou’ve never seen a buoy be incorrect of you’ve done any sort of mileage.
 
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lustyd said:
They only confirm your place if they are correct and as expected, hence the question above of what, if you’re being honest with yourself, would you do if it wasn’t as expected?
I know that I trust the GPS in that scenario, been there and done it many times in the past year alone when the many buoys were not as expected. Hence my position that the buoys aren’t as useful as most think.

Whether it’s your primary or not, if you immediately abandon it when it doesn’t agree with you then it’s of no genuine use. If you trust the buoys and stop the boat to investigate then there is some utility in them, I just don’t think many actually would.
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So, despite the advice of pilot books and the Harbour Master you would follow GPS and out of date (electronic) charts rather than repositioned buoys after a Westerly Gale to enter the Menai Straits from the Irish Sea?

Unfortunately the electronics are not always up to date and experience pays off.
 
lustyd said:
What’s your personal experience?
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I can immediately think of 4 separate personal experiences in the last 10 years where a GPS/chartplotter has failed me, when a chart and pencil + use of marks would not have done. One led to a grounding. One a very near grounding. One would have taken me approximately 20m parallel to a narrow channel had I not followed the marks. The last one could have been more serious without marks - tablet crashed exactly on emerging from a Dutch lock into the Wadden Sea, with a complex, bumpy, windy, tidal path ahead. Fortunately I had a paper chart to hand and could see the marks.
 
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