Shotley to Ramsgate, best available charts/folio?

[Ohlin Karcher]

I must get new charts to continue south, as my Thames Estuary ones are a bit old, and I like intricate passage planning rather than going right round the outside of everything. What's the best small craft folio to get, with the most recent surveys, Imray or Admiralty?
Things which matter to me are...having all the wind farms marked, up-to-date soundings, and plenty of tide diamonds.
I have a few days of southerly gales to sit out, and I would have time to go mail order if Fox's or Shotley chandlers were out of stock.
Many thanks

 

[Kukri]

You really need Roger’s book, “Crossing the Thames Estuary”. (Roger = Tillergirl).

I don’t think there is any point in going “inside” unless you are planning to stop on the way.

If going outside be warned that the Imray folio omits the Long Sand Head buoy which is quite important.

See PM

 

[MoodySabre]

http://www.crossingthethamesestuary.com

 

[johnalison]

In ye olden days we always used Admiralty Thames Estuary N & S, replacing the North one more often, since we used to sail from the Blackwater. I still prefer Admiralty charts but am happy with the folio versions since they include other areas we visit. I wouldn't want a chart that might omit important navigation marks, personally.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Isn't it "out of the harbour and turn right" ?

 

[Kukri]

Isn't it "out of the harbour and turn right" ?

Turn left out of the harbour, leave the Roughs Tower close to starboard, carry on to Long Sand Head and turn right.

Or you can do it the hard way...

 

[Biggles Wader]

Don't forget to turn right again at the end or you end up in Dover and no one wants to do that surely?

 

[LittleSister]

I like intricate passage planning rather than going right round the outside of everything.

Tillergirl is, er, your man. (Roger Gaspar, author of Crossing the Thames Estuary). Hopefully along soon.

Numerous possibilities cutting through, and depends somewhat on tides, but I will often go -
Medusa (off The Naze)
Round top of the Gunfleet (don't need to keep as far N as NE Gunfleet, but note reduced depths reported)
Down Barrow Deep to near Barrow No. 2 and go through
Little Sunk passage, referring to Roger's download chart at http://www.crossingthethamesestuary.com/Little Sunk Download 2019 V1.pdf
Down Black Deep to near Black Deep No. 6.
Through Foulgers Gat (goes through wide buoyed channel, with dogleg, through middle of wind farm )
Leave N. Foreland to stbd.

 

[Kukri]

Foulger’s Gat? You are a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

(What an intolerable deal of wind farm for one half penny worth of buoyage!)

Anyway, this thread needs Roger Gaspar!

http://www.eastcoastpilot.com/LA_Ops&Maintenance_2013.pdf

 

[PaulRainbow]

Tillergirl is, er, your man. (Roger Gaspar, author of Crossing the Thames Estuary). Hopefully along soon.

Numerous possibilities cutting through, and depends somewhat on tides, but I will often go -
Medusa (off The Naze)
Round top of the Gunfleet (don't need to keep as far N as NE Gunfleet, but note reduced depths reported)
Down Barrow Deep to near Barrow No. 2 and go through
Little Sunk passage, referring to Roger's download chart at http://www.crossingthethamesestuary.com/Little Sunk 2019 V1.jpg
Down Black Deep to near Black Deep No. 8.
Through Foulgers Gat (goes through wide buoyed channel, with dogleg, through middle of wind farm )
Leave N. Foreland to stbd.

If you're going down to Black Deep 8, you'll be at Fishermans Gat. Foulgers Gat is near Black Deep 6

 

[LittleSister]

Foulger’s Gat? You are a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

(What an intolerable deal of wind farm for one half penny worth of buoyage!)

Easy as pie, and acres of room.

The buoyage is quite good, except that it's difficult to see on approach as it's dwarfed by the turbines by day, and hard to pick out against all the windfarm lights by night.

 

[LittleSister]

If you're going down to Black Deep 8, you'll be at Fishermans Gat. Foulgers Gat is near Black Deep 6

Ops! Well spotted. I thought it sounded a bit odd as I wrote it. Have now amended my previous post.

 

[Kukri]

Easy as pie, and acres of room.

The buoyage is quite good, except that it's difficult to see on approach as it's dwarfed by the turbines by day, and hard to pick out against all the windfarm lights by night.

That is my point! I won’t do it at all at night - wind farms are the exception to the rule that the Estuary is easier in the dark - and I don’t find it easy to find the buoys in the day.

 

[tillergirl]

Not dealing with the original question about folios (yet), there are five practical routes I would suggest.

The 'Outside' Route - Roughs, Long Sand Head outside of the Knock, north of the Thanet Wind Farm, and 4 'Medusa' routes:
via the Black Deep and Foulger's Gat
via the Little Sunk and the Black Deep
via the Black Deep and Fisherman's Gat
via the Little Sunk and Fisherman's Gat.

I know of at least one person who chose - Wallet, Spitway, SW Sunk swatch, Fisherman's, North Foreland etc but I have never calculated that so I'll stick with the five. I would suggest that five gives some good options such as not wanting to cross the Sunk Sand, not going through the Wind Farm, getting the quickest option, etc. I wouldn't criticise anyone avoiding anything; I talked with a Club member who has sailed the Pacific but he really didn't like Foulger's especially when the weather was threatening. And the second time I got rather... well scared, was coming north exiting from the Black Deep towards the Medusa in 'orrid weather. Here is a comparison for the five routes taking an example such as average 5 kts boat speed on a Spring Tide:

Via Black Deep and Foulger's - total distance = 39.75nm. If there was no tide at all @ 5kts it would take 7hrs 57 mins. With tide, best time north = 6hrs 58 mins, worst time 9 hrs 28 mins: south best time 7 hrs 23 mins, worst time 8 hrs 37 mins. Hazards - shipping in the Black Deep, Wind Farm at Foulger's and occasionaly it can be closed for maintenance (on the Wind Farm not the Gat!).

Via Little Sunk and Foulger's - total distance = 39.07nm. If there was no tide at all @ 5kts it would take 7hrs 48 mins. With tide, best time north = 6hrs 39 mins, worst time 9 hrs 15 mins: south best time 7 hrs 40 mins, worst time 8 hrs 19 mins. Hazards - Crossing the Sunk Sand - not much of a hazard with a GPS signal, controlling depth is about 3m, Foulger's - as above.

Via Black Deep and Fisherman's - total distance = 41.19nm. If there was no tide at all @ 5kts it would take 8hrs 14 mins. With tide best time north = 7hrs 17 mins, worst time 9 hrs 46 mins: south, best time 8 hrs 21 mins, worst time 8 hrs 50 mins. Hazards - just the shipping in the Black Deep. Note going South the difference between the best time and worst time. Does it matter really what time you start.

Via Little Sunk and Fisherman's - total distance = 39.87nm. If there was no tide at all @ 5kts it would take 7hrs 58 mins. With tide best time north = 6hrs 51 mins, worst time 9 hrs 44 mins: south best time 8 hrs 00 mins, worst time 8 hrs 35 mins. Hazards - The Sunk Sand as above. Note going South - only 35 minutes duration between the best and worst time: Go when you want!

Via The Outside - total distance = 46.53nm. If there was no tide at all @ 5kts it would take 9hrs 18 mins. With tide best time north = 7hrs 38 mins, worst time 10 hrs 16 mins: south best time 8 hrs 04 mins, worst time 10 hrs 44 mins. Hazards - the Sunk Gyratory, Long Sand Head (stay away as said before - sand and ships), mind the two-way shipping route.

Frankly all the hazards can be dealt with with sense and prudence. Equally anyone could opt out on account of the hazards. I could (with a smile) suggest that going to Ramsgit from Shotley is not the best way to go! Just a joke. Frankly the unsynchronised two tides (North Sea and England Channel) don't really serves us well. Going south at 5kts, the best help we can get is saving an hour in an 8 hour passage. If going via Fisherman's you can't beat the tide - compare the NOTE time (No Tide Effect Time) comparing the best times south via Fisherman's. Quickest way is via Foulger's and Little Sunk, slowest is Outside. But saying that is a little unfair because the quickest is the shortest and the slowest is the longest. The Outside route does best from the tide (trimming 90 mins approx twix NOTE timeand the quickest.

Distances are quoted from (my) waypoint outside Harwich Harbour to outside Ramsgit Harbour.

And then the question re folios. For all the research I have full UKHO charts - Thames Estuary North and South (1975 & 1607), Imray and UKHO leisure folios. I use the full UKHO charts - Tiller Girl has the luxury of a full size chart table - but tend to use the Imray folios as well, indeed I use those charts on my laptop for all the surveys. An objective comparison is worth a separate reply - but reference the absence of the folio that covers the Long Sand Head. We had a thread about that earlier this year and the MD of Imray is aware of that. Lucy wants feedback like that and I suspect the next edition of the folio might be considered. But for the kind of scale we would want/need isn't easy without increasing costs.

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

Just got back I will peruse in the morning thanks

 

[Old Bumbulum]

As Little Sister said, it's the logical route and the practical route and in decent conditions is a one-tide piece of ease!

 

[LittleSister]

there are five practical routes I would suggest. . .

An excellent summary, Roger. :encouragement:

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

Thanks to all especially Tillergirl, I have your CTTE book but it's not here..
I will have a good read of all this with charts in front of me

 

[pvb]

Thanks to all especially Tillergirl, I have your CTTE book but it's not here..
I will have a good read of all this with charts in front of me

Just go outside; it's much easier and not much longer. The lack of stress makes up for the extra few minutes spent on the relaxed trip!

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

Just go outside; it's much easier and not much longer. The lack of stress makes up for the extra few minutes spent on the relaxed trip!

Probably right, I was spoiled on the trip down from LT with glorious sunshine and frolicking seals but looking at the weather, the next leg will be less idyllic!