Shooting in the dark

[MikeBz]

Anchored up the Pyefleet last night, just off the downstream end of Peewit Island. At around sunset a dinghy motors past us upstream, 2 chaps and a dog, lands on Peewit Island. An hour or so later, they haven’t come back, it’s pretty much dark, and sporadic shooting starts seemingly on the peninsula of mainland which forms the entrance to the Pyefleet. Occasional movement of torches. After a while the shooting ceases, shortly afterwards the dinghy motors back downstream. What would they have been shooting in the dark, and how would they spot their quarry?

 

[Jan Harber]

Sounds as if it might be ‘lamping’, a poacher’s technique for shooting rabbits, using powerful torches or car headlights to dazzle the creatures…
Probably not wildfowling as this is usually done at first light and not using a motorised dinghy…

 

[sarabande]

Most shooting people now have thermal imaging or image intensification devices.

Depending on the quarry, if legitimate, than shooting after dusk is not lawful. Amd in any case, the shooters MUST have the landowner's permission. Worth a quiet word with your local police Wildlife Crime Unit.

 

[Slowboat35]

That's not rabbit territory at all, anyway shooting rabbits/foxes in the dark is most definitely not illegal. Clearly cars weren't involved on the Pyefleet peninsula (!!) so it wasn't lamping, a technique used legitimately by all sorts of people for pest control and fun, not just poachers. Sporadic shooting suggests it isn't rabbits as they'll disappear for the night after two shots.

Sounds almost certainly to be wildfowling to me, the location is ideal - something that is usually done in seemingly impossible light levels either before dawn or after dusk and boats are frequently used for both access (as in this case) and perhaps the recovery of quarry.
There is a Brightlingsea wildfowlers club...Kent Wildfowlers also shoot over marshes in the Brightlingsea area. Plus it is fowling season...

How? There is more light than you might imagine in the sky for acclimatised eyes for an hour or more before dawn and after dusk and birds can be seen (albeit with some difficulty) silhouetted against it, it is a sport that demands endless patience and very considerable skills of fieldcraft, endurance, patience and marksmanship and frequently returns no results over several outings.

Did you hear geese honking?

I don't think you have any reason to suspect that wildlife crime is being committed.
Brightlingsea Harbour Commissioners might know more about shooting in the area.

 

[MikeBz]

No sound of geese. Apart from the usual calls of wading birds it was quiet. I checked the Gov website for range firing dates/times in case the range was active and the chaps in the dinghy were incidental and just exercising the dog on Peewit Island (which would have been a bit odd), but no activity shown on the 7th and there had been no red flags during the day. Red flags were up the next day (Sun 8th) with activity listed but no actual activity. There does appear to be a lake in the location where the gunshots were heard and torchlights seen:

 

[Biggles Wader]

Anchored up the Pyefleet last night, just off the downstream end of Peewit Island. At around sunset a dinghy motors past us upstream, 2 chaps and a dog, lands on Peewit Island. An hour or so later, they haven’t come back, it’s pretty much dark, and sporadic shooting starts seemingly on the peninsula of mainland which forms the entrance to the Pyefleet. Occasional movement of torches. After a while the shooting ceases, shortly afterwards the dinghy motors back downstream. What would they have been shooting in the dark, and how would they spot their quarry?

If I had witnessed all that I would have called 999 and let the police deal with it. They might even have turned up on the hurry up to a "men shooting guns in a public place" call.

 

[Slowboat35]

A remote, almost totally inaccessible muddy marsh is a "public place"?
Seriously?

 

[MikeBz]

Sadly in practice it’s hard enough to get the police to come to your house to report a theft, let alone after dark to a remote muddy bit of marshland which is only accessible either by water or by traipsing some distance across an MOD firing range.

 

[johnalison]

A remote, almost totally inaccessible muddy marsh is a "public place"?
Seriously?

Definitely. If open to the public it might be somewhere that someone wants to walk their dog. Although there have been occasions when I have felt like shooting a dog I believe that it is generally frowned upon.

 

[WoodyP]

Just sounds like a couple of blokes wildfowling. Providing they have the shooting rights nothing out of order. Probably ducks either flighting in or out depending on the tide. You can see the birds against the sky.

 

[Biggles Wader]

A remote, almost totally inaccessible muddy marsh is a "public place"?
Seriously?

I assume this is not private land so yes, men firing guns at night in a public place. Something for the police to investigate.

 

[Slowboat35]

I assume this is not private land so yes, men firing guns at night in a public place. Something for the police to investigate.

A pretty wild and unsubstantiable assumption if I may say so. Almost every square inch of UK is privately owned bar government land, ie parks, streets and MoD property.
It's an equally wild and irrational assumption to imagne that shots at night necessarily involve the commission of some kind of crime.
But then this is the countryside and you say you come from London which is perhaps why you don't seem to understand that shooting at night is quite unremarkable. Especially on coastal marshes, in fowling season and at dawn or dusk. As every country dweller knows...

Definitely. If open to the public it might be somewhere that someone wants to walk their dog. Although there have been occasions when I have felt like shooting a dog I believe that it is generally frowned upon.

A great deal of wildfowling is carried out on the foreshore or on publicly accessible land adjacent to footpaths and floodwalls/sea defences where people might want to walk their dogs. Or even walk without them. (baffled as to how walking dogs is relevant). There is no right to roam in England, thank God, so dog walkers (and their dogs) even after dark on remote Pyefleet marshes are required to stick to public footpaths - of which there are none, and fowlers are always aware of where those footpaths are and will act accordingly.

But what bothers me is how the digamma any of this could possibly seen as a police emergency?
Even by townies?

Quite apart from all the above shooting over land for which you do not have permission is a only civil offence, not a criminal one so Police have precisely no input or interest, and every legal gun owner has the right to shoot on the foreshore provided they do not trespass (another non-police civil offence) in accessing it, which is certainly ensured by arriving by boat.


Nothing at all to see here folks. Move along please, move along!

 

[WoodyP]

Actually, armed trespass is a police crime, as in poaching.
Firearms Act 1968

 

[sarabande]

I hav ereervations about

A pretty wild and unsubstantiable assumption if I may say so. Almost every square inch of UK is privately owned bar government land, ie parks, streets and MoD property.
It's an equally wild and irrational assumption to imagne that shots at night necessarily involve the commission of some kind of crime.
But then this is the countryside and you say you come from London which is perhaps why you don't seem to understand that shooting at night is quite unremarkable. Especially on coastal marshes, in fowling season and at dawn or dusk. As every country dweller knows...


A great deal of wildfowling is carried out on the foreshore or on publicly accessible land adjacent to footpaths and floodwalls/sea defences where people might want to walk their dogs. Or even walk without them. (baffled as to how walking dogs is relevant). There is no right to roam in England, thank God, so dog walkers (and their dogs) even after dark on remote Pyefleet marshes are required to stick to public footpaths - of which there are none, and fowlers are always aware of where those footpaths are and will act accordingly.

But what bothers me is how the digamma any of this could possibly seen as a police emergency?
Even by townies?

Quite apart from all the above shooting over land for which you do not have permission is a only civil offence, not a criminal one so Police have precisely no input or interest, and every legal gun owner has the right to shoot on the foreshore provided they do not trespass (another non-police civil offence) in accessing it, which is certainly ensured by arriving by boat.


Nothing at all to see here folks. Move along please, move along!

This country dweller is reluctant to agree with the comment about night shooting being normal. Our police are very interested in any shooting going on in the hours of darkness. And on some foreshores, e.g. in the Plymouth area to my certain knowledge, the sporting rights are held ultimately by the Duchy of Cornwall, and proscribed.

I agree, though, that civil vs criminal acts with gun or rifles on private land need a lot of specialised legal knowledge.

Armed trespass (even with weapons locked in a box) is as I know from personal experience certainly something every police force is very interested in.

 

[Slowboat35]

Quote from a wildfowling website...I stand corrected on some points, but the bottom line remains that wildfowl shooting at night is far from unusual, let alone illegal as anyone who lives near mershes or the foreshore knows. And police in such areas have neither interest nor any business in such shooting. Which possibly explains why dwellers in cities aren't so up to speed...

"The case of Beckett v Lyons (1967) 1 AER 833 finally dispelled the popular myth that, in England and Wales, there was a public right to shoot on the foreshore. It follows from this case that any person who takes a shotgun on to the foreshore without proper authorisation not only renders himself liable to a civil action for trespass but, under the Firearms Act 1968 may be prosecuted for the criminal offence of armed trespass. Members of the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC) are in a somewhat privileged position as much of the area below high water mark is owned by the Crown or by the Duchy of Lancaster and, except where the sporting rights have been leased to a third party, the BASC has negotiated a right for its members to resort to such foreshore for the purpose of wildfowling. That having been said, the reality of the situation is that the most worthwhile areas of fowling marsh have been leased by wildfowling clubs, are in private ownership or have been designated as nature reserves. In consequence, there are few areas of England and Wales where an itinerant gunner can simply cross the sea wall and obtain good quality sport without the need to acquire a permit.



In England and Wales the foreshore is defined as that area which is more often than not covered by the flux and reflux of the four ordinary tides occurring midway between springs and neaps. In effect, therefore, much of the prime wildfowling land which is flooded by only the highest spring tides does not fall within that area which is classified as foreshore and the fowler will be committing an offence if he shoots from such salt marsh without specific permission from the owner."

Suffice it to say that as ever the law in Scotland differs.

Which boils down to the fact that if you don't have credible knowlege or suspicion that the shooters either don't have landowners permission or are hunting illegal quarry (eg deer) - and how could you possibly harbour such a suspicion? - then a 999 call to the police is all but a mischevious waste of police time.

 

[sarabande]

SlowB

No-one involved in animal welfare wants to waste police time, but with thousands of deer on Exmoor, and lots of poaching, getting information about gates left open, lights in fields, and 4WD tracks to the police is an essential so that resources can be allocated effectively. I guess our Wildlife Crime officers have a different moorland territory from the marshlands, and that generates a different set of problems.

It's not only poachers who have night vision equipment.

 

[Plum]

Anchored up the Pyefleet last night, just off the downstream end of Peewit Island. At around sunset a dinghy motors past us upstream, 2 chaps and a dog, lands on Peewit Island. An hour or so later, they haven’t come back, it’s pretty much dark, and sporadic shooting starts seemingly on the peninsula of mainland which forms the entrance to the Pyefleet. Occasional movement of torches. After a while the shooting ceases, shortly afterwards the dinghy motors back downstream. What would they have been shooting in the dark, and how would they spot their quarry?

Wildfowling at night is not unusual. There are several places on the River Crouch that I am aware of. This wildfowler got stuck in the mud. If you look at the picture top-left you will see his gun sticking out of his backpack

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02hCYMpc498W6Sv3UR17VKPtC872U43uU4PRnAmdV3j6Tkq6EVPJCg21eMBtgvEjQGl&id=100064728576657

Wildfowler in the mud

 

[Slowboat35]

SlowB

No-one involved in animal welfare wants to waste police time, but with thousands of deer on Exmoor, and lots of poaching, getting information about gates left open, lights in fields, and 4WD tracks to the police is an essential so that resources can be allocated effectively. I guess our Wildlife Crime officers have a different moorland territory from the marshlands, and that generates a different set of problems.

It's not only poachers who have night vision equipment.

Sure. As I've been saying all along, it depends on the location, context is everything. Gunshots at night on marshes are to be expected. Rifle shots (a completely different sound) at night on Exmoor is quite another matter and cannot be legit though even there 4WD tracks and lights in fields as opposed to the moors themselves is likely people lamping rabbits or foxes. It's the rifle shots that give the game away.
tbh if there are thousands of deer on Exmoor than maybe some poaching is not necessarily a bad thing as numbers need to be controlled.
I'd much rather see deer being poached than some species of duck and goose.

 

[Jan Harber]

A pretty wild and unsubstantiable assumption if I may say so. Almost every square inch of UK is privately owned bar government land, ie parks, streets and MoD property.
It's an equally wild and irrational assumption to imagne that shots at night necessarily involve the commission of some kind of crime.
But then this is the countryside and you say you come from London which is perhaps why you don't seem to understand that shooting at night is quite unremarkable. Especially on coastal marshes, in fowling season and at dawn or dusk. As every country dweller knows...


A great deal of wildfowling is carried out on the foreshore or on publicly accessible land adjacent to footpaths and floodwalls/sea defences where people might want to walk their dogs. Or even walk without them. (baffled as to how walking dogs is relevant). There is no right to roam in England, thank God, so dog walkers (and their dogs) even after dark on remote Pyefleet marshes are required to stick to public footpaths - of which there are none, and fowlers are always aware of where those footpaths are and will act accordingly.

But what bothers me is how the digamma any of this could possibly seen as a police emergency?
Even by townies?

Quite apart from all the above shooting over land for which you do not have permission is a only civil offence, not a criminal one so Police have precisely no input or interest, and every legal gun owner has the right to shoot on the foreshore provided they do not trespass (another non-police civil offence) in accessing it, which is certainly ensured by arriving by boat.


Nothing at all to see here folks. Move along please, move along!

If anyone would like to know more about the history of wildfowling on the East Coast, I would recommend J. Wentworth Day’s book Coastal Adventure: A Book about Marshes and the Sea, Shooting and Fishing, Wildfowl and Waders and Men Who Sail in SmallBoats, published by Harrap in 1949.
In the author’s words it is a book about ‘wildfowlers and fishermen, of marsh farmers and those hermit brethren of the longshore mudflats…’ He tells of ‘Five thousand wild geese in a village creek’ and ‘Three thousand duck on the wing’…
His description of mud is classic Wentworth Day: ‘For mud is the friend of wildfowl, the saviour of our still unspoiled East Anglian coasts. Without mud there would be bungalows and trippers, motorboats and speculators, Cockneys and cads. Mud defies and derides them all.’
The book is illustrated by many historic black and white photos of oyster dredgers, punt-gunners, wildfowlers, sailing barges, smacks, mud and saltings.

 

[Plum]

Wildfowling at night is not unusual. There are several places on the River Crouch that I am aware of. This wildfowler got stuck in the mud. If you look at the picture top-left you will see his gun sticking out of his backpack

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02hCYMpc498W6Sv3UR17VKPtC872U43uU4PRnAmdV3j6Tkq6EVPJCg21eMBtgvEjQGl&id=100064728576657

Wildfowler in the mud

Edited my post above as the link, to the wildfowler stuck in the mud, had disappeared

wildfowler stuck in the mud