Shock! Bavaria keel stays attached.

[Talulah]

A particular sailing school who I do the occasional work for had one of it's Bavaria 37's lifted last week for the winter ashore.
Examination revealed signs of an impact on the bulb of the keel. There was a half inch gap between the rear of the keel and the hull and a 3 inch gap at the front of the keel and the hull.
I'm glad I wasn't instructing in that boat and why didn't the skipper at the time report such a heavy grounding?
If the boat hadn't been lifted it makes you wonder how much longer the keel bolts would have stayed in tact before catastrophic failure.
On close examination the stringer inside the hull at the rear of the keel had been forced upwards. I wonder if the crew had been jumping up and down inside trying to push the floor back down again!
I think the boat is about 5 years old. If it were one of the newer models would the keel have just been ripped right off?

I can relax a bit in the knowledge I have an encapsulated keel.

Light blue touch paper and retire!

 

[exfinnsailor]

So you never BUY a boat thats been owned by a Sailing School or a Charter Group .. EVER .. Even if it is CHEAP .. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Tranona]

That is a very sweeping statement ex_finn_sailor. There are hundreds of charter and sailing school boats that have never grounded to the extent that there is severe damage. And as the post says, it is easily spotted. There is an extensive article on the subject in February PBO which rightly states that such damage is a consequence of design - and this style of keel is now the norm.

Only today one of our local surveyors was telling me about a 30 footer from a highly regarded builder (not Bavaria) that had suffered extensive damage to floors and stringers from dropping on a hard sandbank. This was privately owned and extensively raced. Suggests it is usage rather than ownership that is the cause! although admittedly high usage boats stand a greater risk.

From my personal experience, my Bavaria 37 has survived 7 years of chartering in the Ionian where there are lots of very hard rocks without any keel or rudder damage.

 

[steve_cronin]

[ QUOTE ]
There was a half inch gap between the rear of the keel and the hull and a 3 inch gap at the front of the keel and the hull.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not clear on this. are these dimensions horizontal, as in the keel had slipped back some 3"at the front - but then how could it have, at the same time, slipped forward 1/2" at the rear?

Or was there a daylight gap of 1/2" vertically between the top flange of the keel and the bottom of the hull at the rear widening to 3" at the front? In which case, surely the front keelbolts would have been long gone and the boat would now be at the bottom of the sea. Could you please clarify.

Steve Cronin

 

[Talulah]

Case 2. Vertical gap. So rather than the keel bolts failing it looks like they have been pulled out so far. I don't know if the keel bolt has been pulled out of the keel or through the stringer inside the hull or a mixture of both. Presumably the tilt of the keel then adds to the retention of the remaining section of keel bolts.
Cost of repair has been put at £2500.

(The damage was relayed to me last night by the principal. I have not seen it first hand.)

 

[Salty John]

My Jeanneau suffered a cracked hull alongside the keel after a heavy grounding. The design and construction of the boat was such that it could not withstand this type of grounding.

I find it unacceptable that boats should be designed and built this way but, as you say, there seems to be an acceptence that this is normal and that users should be more careful. I believe groundings are a predictable and likely occurance and should be designed for.

 

[boatmike]

____________________________________________________________________
I find it unacceptable that boats should be designed and built this way but, as you say, there seems to be an acceptence that this is normal and that users should be more careful. I believe groundings are a predictable and likely occurance and should be designed for.
____________________________________________________________________

Can't argue with that. The problem is there is just no legislation to prevent it and builders are continually paring costs. Most of the builders who build boats properly, which in my opinion should include the ability to withstand catastrophic failure if grounded, are struggling against the competition producing tuppaware dishes with razorblades bolted to the bottom.
Primarily it's down to the ignorance of the punters that buy glossy tardis things with double beds and "bathrooms" because they look nice. Without being rude I hope, I would ask "why did you buy one if you don't think they should be designed like this?"

 

[ebbtide]

Re: Shock! Most keels stay attached. . .

My Jouet had miniscule 1" floors and the keel worked sufficiently to need filling & fairing every winter. Nothing serious apart from bruised chequebook.
But you don't think to blame designer or builder while enjoying the sleigh ride!

 

[wotayottie]

Yes- I wondered too Steve. Sounded as if the stringers had become unbonded and then the weight of the keel was pulling down on the centre of the hull and altering its shape. In which case 2500 sounds low.

I saw the article in PBO and its a statement of the engineering obvious. If you have a sharp V shaped hull profile it will be naturally more resistant to impact loadings on the keel than would be a flat hull shape. But the answer to that is to re-inforce the flat shape. In the end, do you try to make a boat completely impact resistant? Surely you build in a reasonable level of resistance without having to go to an old fashioned narrow hull / long keel design with all its disadvantages.

Here in the bristol channel, boats traditionally take to the ground both in soft mud and on hard sand so most were built to take it. In my time here, I've seen 3 encapsulated long keel boats with severe damage due to pounding on the sand (one sunk) , and several bilge keel boats (including two sunk on moorings) with keel problems due either to grounding or leverage in soft mud. Interestingly, the bilge boats with one exception were all Westerlies. I guess that I am saying grounding damage is not just an issue with modern Bavs.

 

[Salty John]

A valid question! I bought it in a moment of madness when, coming off a three year cruise, I thought my sailing would be confined to weekends in local waters, maybe a bit of racing. My wife liked the airy feel and space it provided.
I did not, however, believe that a grounding would result in the destruction of the boat, no matter how suspicious I have always been of bolt on appendages! Silly me.

 

[srevir]

The comment about westerlies illustrates just how daft some of the 'old is best' remarks made in this thread are

The 'westerley grin' is a well known separation of the keel from the hull in what many would regard as well built boats designed 30 plus years ago. My Centaur was brilliant but not quick and a check on the keel bolts before buying her was the main recommendation by the surveyor

The best comment made in the thread is that if you dont like modern boats then you dont have to buy them

To my mind many of the comments fall into the 'sun reader' mentality of always seeking to have a 'shock' headline and also seeking someone-else to blame.

The facts are, if you want high performance then you go for modern, beamy shapes with a fin keel. However you need to accept that even Bavaria cannot overcome the physics of long levers

Leave Bavaria alone, they provide value for money, for those who want that type of sailing

 

[Tranona]

Well said, srevir! Just like cars - glad that they don't make them like they used to.

My first boat was a Sea Wych that I put together myself in 1977. That had steel punchings set in resin for ballast. I put the mix in myself so know it was done properly. It was a lovely little boat to learn on. Had it 3 years before moving up. About 3 years ago it appeared on the drive of a local house. I met the new owner and discovered that he had got it for next to nothing because the shoes on the keels had worn away, exposed the GRP which had then worn allowing water in. The steel rusted splitting the keels. Fortunately he worked in GRP so was able to break out the rusty ballast and mould new keel housings. I had all the original instructions so he was able to re-ballast it to the original design. Big job and not cost effective unless DIY.

There is also a series on keels running in Yachting World concentrating on why they break off racing boats. This is very different from production boat issues. The physics are the same, but the scale is very different. Production boats can stand up to a lot of abuse as the example that started this thread shows. The boat is (presumably) still floating the keel is still attached and the damage was not obvious until it was lifted. Think of the bottom of the hull in a similar way to the crumple zones on cars. It distorts and absorbs the energy of a grounding. The big question will be whether the repair brings the boat back to its original design strength.

 

[Piddy]

Not a Bavaria but something like this:

or:

or:

As seen in St. Peter Port in 2006.
The story was they hit a container 12 miles Northeast of Guernsey and were towed in with pumps running. Of course 12 miles Northeast of Guernsey is close-ish to Alderney and its rocky shoreline.

IIRC it was a 43' Hanse with a deeeep keel. It must have drawn 8' or more and towered over us when I took the pictures.

I find it strange that containers would float that deep in the water - at least that's how I reassured SWMBO who is paranoid aout containers!

Cheers

 

[flaming]

[ QUOTE ]

The facts are, if you want high performance then you go for modern, beamy shapes with a fin keel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely true, and the best reason for not doing anything daft and imposing limits on the strutural strength of a boat being required to withstand a hull speed grounding.
Whilst this seems very sensible for cruising boats, it will obviously limit the performance of the top racing boats, most of which accept that a high speed grounding (probably way in excess of hull speed) will result in serious damage and sail accordingly.
And this is fine.

However the fact that cruising designs are following racing designs in this respect is very worrying, especially as these boats are being actively marketed to people with little experience.

 

[Salty John]

I may be wrong, but after three readings I can't find a single reference to 'old is best' in this thread!

 

[Tranona]

You are right, in a way, Saltyjohn. It is the implication, rather than the explicit! I guess what some are pointing out is that alternative keel designs (usally, but not always) associated with older boats are not necessarily trouble free.

The other half of my conversation with the surveyor was about the comparisons between older and newer boats and his conclusion that there are plenty of problems with older boats because of poor design and poor materials. Of course many of these boats like the Westerlys used as illustration are 30 or more years old. However, the keel problems were there when they were new as were the very basic and poorly designed rudders! (He also commented that many of the criticisms of Bavarias etc were of the My father knew somebody who knew Lloyd George variety)

Things move on and it will be interesting to see (for those who are still around) how AWBs stand up to 30 years use.

 

[steve_cronin]

[ QUOTE ]
....To my mind many of the comments fall into the 'sun reader' mentality of always seeking to have a 'shock' headline and also seeking someone-else to blame.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing to do with keels but isn't that true of quite a lot about contemporary life. HMG & SOME sailing forums for example.

Steve Cronin

 

[Salty John]

You are right, of course, that there is usually an implied criticism of modern designs when things like keel integrity are discussed.
There's no doubt that modern materials and construction methods have given us a large variety of designs that would have been impractical 40 years ago, and stronger and cheaper boats as well. It's a pity that some models have got the balance wrong between cost reduction and integrity.

 

[bbg]

[ QUOTE ]
My Jeanneau suffered a cracked hull alongside the keel after a heavy grounding. The design and construction of the boat was such that it could not withstand this type of grounding.

I find it unacceptable that boats should be designed and built this way but, as you say, there seems to be an acceptence that this is normal and that users should be more careful. I believe groundings are a predictable and likely occurance and should be designed for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this kind of comment. Do you really think boats should be designed to come away from a heavy grounding unscathed? Cars certainly aren't designed to come away from serious crashes unscathed.

I would accept that production boats should be expected to come away from moderate groundings with enough structural integrity to get the crew home. But IMHO it is unrealistic to expect any boat to take a "heavy grounding" and not end up with a seriously expensive repair bill.

 

[Koeketiene]

[ QUOTE ]
I would accept that production boats should be expected to come away from moderate groundings with enough structural integrity to get the crew home. But IMHO it is unrealistic to expect any boat to take a "heavy grounding" and not end up with a seriously expensive repair bill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank God I have such an "unrealistic" boat /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif