Shell engine oil API CD

[grumpygit]

Vyv's research shows that CF-4 is acceptable. Our neighbour down the road is head of Shell Lubricants, known as King Oil, so I will get my son to ask him about all this!!!

Thank you for looking into this. Being permanent liveaboards and in Greece at the moment a lot of the leading manufacturers we are used to in the UK are difficult to find out here and the containers are written in Greek, also had the same problem in Croatia as in being in Croatian.

May be if you can come up with ASEA as well as API codes would be really helpful as this is all you can pick out on the labeling on the containers.

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[vyv_cox]

So why was it made obsolete if it's specified by major engine manufacturers? What is the difference say between CD an CF or any other C type oils for that matter?

As your web page states "Engine lubricants may be considered as having two main components: the base oil and the additive package" what does the additive package consist of?

'Major engine manufacturers' may be true, but only in respect of yacht auxiliary engines, which is an extremely small sector of the market. We are just not big enough to warrant having oil specifically for us. Volvo simply get around this by specifying their own oil for their bigger engines, API CG if I remember correctly, but I think knowing that it is not best for the smaller ones. I suspect that the Shell X-100 Super that is still produced is targeted at the vintage car market, not at us.

I thought that the difference between grades was explained already but here goes again. Other than advanced additive packages that include detergents, anti-oxidants and up to 20 other substances, the big difference is the total base number TBN. Hot, turbo charged, high sulphur fuelled engines need a high TBN to maintain neutrality in the critical areas. Cold, slow running, low sulphur fuelled engines need a low TBN. API CD specifies a base number of 3 - 4. A high performance lubricant may have a TBN of 15. Cylinder lubricants for marine diesels running on residual fuel may have a TBN as high as 60. Using an oil with a high TBN in a cool engine is likely to lead to early bore wear.

Additive packages are very complex and competitive between brands. As above, 20 or more compounds may be included to control such things as detergency, anti-oxidation, boundary lubrication, etc. Naturally, the oil companies spend their research money on developing lubs for the latest engines, many of which run on the limit of what is possible. These oils are quite inappropriate for our engines, indeed there are known examples on this forum where using high-tech oils have led to engine damage due to their high detergency and ability to transport particulates.

Someone mentioned API CC. AFAIK this has a TBN of 3 and a Shell grade in the past was specified for single cylinder Bukh engines in lifeboats. So it is probably a good choice for many engines.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I pass this information on for what it's worth.

Couple of boats ago I had a Prout cat with an almost new but run in yanmar 2gm in it. We took it across Biscay from Bordeaux to Bilbao in a flat calm so the engine was running at steady revs for about 30 hours. By the time we got there it was drinking oil never having consumed any beforehand.

Subsequent discussions with both Yanmar technical and the Shell oil laboratories suggested that we had unwittingly committed two sins, the major one being that we had followed the normal idea of being kind to our engine by giving it good oil - a semi synthetic. Yanmar insisted that putting a higher grade modern oil in an old design engine was asking for trouble. I was sceptical so I spoke independantly to shell laboratories and to my surprise they said the same thing. They went so far as to say that we should never use synthetics in old design engines since there were components in the oil that could cause accelerated wear.

The second factor in case you wondered was that we left the throttle alone for 30 hours and didnt vary the engine speed. The result was bores polished to the point where you could see your face in them - literally. The block could not be recovered by honing ( we tried twice) and was replaced FOC by Yanmar.

 

[anderson]

engine oil

i would only use this in a very modern engine or one with a turbo fitted,in an old engine before about 75 this type of oil cleans them out to much and you lose all the carbon seal .

 

[Chris_Robb]

i would only use this in a very modern engine or one with a turbo fitted,in an old engine before about 75 this type of oil cleans them out to much and you lose all the carbon seal .

Anderson - not sure which post you are replying to. what oild type are you referring to. This forum is a bit rubbish at making connections with another post!

 

[Quandary]

Engine Oil

Vyv.
Thanks for your patience in repeating all the info.
I for one, accept the reasoning entirely and all I have to do now is identify the UK marketed product that best meets this specification.
Your website is good, nice concise advice on a limited number of subjects without any dross to read through. Good stuff.

 

[vyv_cox]

Your website is good, nice concise advice on a limited number of subjects without any dross to read through. Good stuff.

Thanks for the kind words. The site is still being developed and I hope to expand it in the future. Plenty more to go in yet!

 

[gavin_lacey]

My volvo 2030 is supposed to use CH4 spec oil. Very little of the oil sold in supermarkets is of this spec. However trucks and agricultural vehicles use the same spec and as such commercial service centres stock this grade of oil at a far lower price than volvo own brand. Presumably these vehicles like boats run for long periods at one speed.

 

[Rowana]

My Beta manual specifies API CD, but as has already been stated, this grade is obsolete. I checked various websites and discovered that the replacement grade is CF-4. This can be bought in Tescos and Halfords under their own brand names. Since neither Tesco or Halfords make lub oil, they must get it from someone who does!

I change my oil & filter twice a year whether it needs it or not. Like others, my engine is used (mostly) for short periods and at fairly low revs, and I believe that regular oil changes is the best I can do for it.

Do you remember having to change the engine oil in your car every 3000 miles, or am I just showing my age?


.

 

[Marsupial]

when a good engine lasted 20,000 miles

Yes! change the oil every 3000 miles and rebore every 20000 miles - those were the days - then they invented mulitgrade oils and shell bearings . . . . .

anyway, screwfix do a basic diesel lub oil that seems to conform to the old CD spec. there is another marketed under the comma brand that is sold by independent car parts dealers.

tend to agree with the idea that modern synthetic oil in agricultural (marine) engines is not a good idea - unless the maker calls for it. also agree with the idea that clean dry oil is better than dirty wet oil - so change it more often to preserve the engine.

My genuine Yanmar engine oil - provided by Yanmar FOC says it meets the spec CD (its written on it) - which, we all know is obsolete, so perhaps its only obsolete is the USA

 

[vyv_cox]

My Beta manual specifies API CD, but as has already been stated, this grade is obsolete. I checked various websites and discovered that the replacement grade is CF-4.

What needs to be remembered is that 'various websites' are not advising about yachts, they are advising about cars (or trucks), which is generally true of the whole API system. No oil manufacturer gives a s**t about yacht engines, but as has been said they may make small amounts of oil for vintage vehicles.

CF-4 has a higher base number than CD, which simply reflects the fact that nobody makes a car engine any more that performs as one would be expected to do 20 or more years ago. Your yacht auxiliary though, in general, performs pretty much exactly as it did 20 or more years ago. My boat is 25 years old and its motoring requirements are the same today as they were when it was first launched.

 

[jdc]

KOH?

CF-4 has a higher base number than CD, which ...

You've certainly made a compelling case that the high base numbers of today's oils are unnecessary, not only because of the relatively low operating temperatures we use but also because the sulphur content of our marine diesel fuel has come down by a factor of 10 to 100 fold, both of which should reduce build-up of sulphuric acid. But I wondered if BN is simply added quantity of pure KOH (ie BN == parts per thousand added), or is a more complex chemical system?. And if it is just KOH, what damage does it actually do? Can one mitigate it in any way?

I quite see that all the rest of the additive cocktail, especially the heavy metal compounds, could cause bore glazing and all sorts of nasty effects, but we can't simply bemoan how ill treated we are, nor does a sort of latter-day alchemist's quest for an elixir of engine life appeal. So is there a more scientific approach we could use? Maybe a guide giving recommended ranges of the various additives as a function of engine type? Oil companies may not care about us as a customer group, but we could campaign for more definitive statements from engine manufacturers. Beta just tell me to "use CF or higher" which seems pretty unhelpful at best and possibly damaging at worst.

So far all I know, and I don't think I'm unusually ignorant, is:

1. It must be mineral not synthetic
2. Almost any oil would probably do except
3. They're b*^^@£@d up with all sorts of unnecessary and possibly deleterious additives
4. And are far more alkaline than is necessary
6. Probably older oils are better than modern ones

This doesn't feel like sufficient understanding to make informed choices between brands or even grades!

A very merry Christmas to all btw.

 

[lw395]

1. It must be mineral not synthetic
2. Almost any oil would probably do except
3. They're b*^^@£@d up with all sorts of unnecessary and possibly deleterious additives
4. And are far more alkaline than is necessary
6. Probably older oils are better than modern ones



A very merry Christmas to all btw.

I have to disagree with all of that apart from the merry xmas bit.
Synthetic oil is very good.
Modern oil allows vehicles to last much longer.
There are one or two 'gotchas' about primitive seals and running in though, also a very dirty engine will suffer if you change from a no-detergent to a high detergent oil.
Plenty about all of this on motorcycle fora.
It's not for nothing that modern engines last for far longer at higher rpm.
You won't convince people about this, you have more chance of converting them to Buddhism. About the only concensus is to change it fairly often.

Happy New Year to all.
PS what kind of grease should I use on my anchor swivel ;-)

 

[vyv_cox]

But I wondered if BN is simply added quantity of pure KOH (ie BN == parts per thousand added), or is a more complex chemical system?. And if it is just KOH, what damage does it actually do? Can one mitigate it in any way?

.

No, far more complex than that. If it was simply added KOH it would last about an hour. The trick is to find chemicals that become basic as they react with the sulphur-based combustion products, thus prolonging the TBN.

 

[vyv_cox]

Plenty about all of this on motorcycle fora.

Of course, the number of diesel motorcycle engines running at a steady 2000 rpm for several hours on end are too numerous to mention.

 

[lw395]

Of course, the number of diesel motorcycle engines running at a steady 2000 rpm for several hours on end are too numerous to mention.

Yes, but motorcyclists have more interesting fora than owners of Mercedes Diesel Automatics, at least in my point of view. Lots of studies have been done on wear rates with different oils.

The running at constant RPM for a long time part of that is an interesting point though, it has several times come up as 'a bad thing', including with bikes, particularly in the states, where long flat straights over the desert are more common than in Hampshire. I've always thought that this was a fatigue or resonance effect rather that directly to do with oil chemistry, given that the engine is not being overworked?
It could be that oil is simply not getting to some parts at some rpm due to vibration.
I guess generator engines get tested to death at the fixed rpm they will run at, so these effects will not occur?
Of course lots of people have blown up small bikes by running them at constant high speed, when too much oil heads for the breather, or some part just overheats.
Also remember that in the good old days when mineral oil was 'straight', it was often discarded in favour of castor oil for racing because it wasn't good enough.

 

[Rowana]

What needs to be remembered is that 'various websites' are not advising about yachts, they are advising about cars (or trucks), which is generally true of the whole API system. No oil manufacturer gives a s**t about yacht engines, but as has been said they may make small amounts of oil for vintage vehicles.

CF-4 has a higher base number than CD, which simply reflects the fact that nobody makes a car engine any more that performs as one would be expected to do 20 or more years ago. Your yacht auxiliary though, in general, performs pretty much exactly as it did 20 or more years ago. My boat is 25 years old and its motoring requirements are the same today as they were when it was first launched.

vyv, I hear what you are saying, but the sites I was refering to were ones like the API site and such like - http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/150916thAdd10308forprint-2.pdf

I also looked at various oil company sites, and if I remember correctly, Total, or was it Q8, made a CD oil for agricultural use, but it was in 45 gal drums, so I promptly dismissed it.

I'm working on the principle that CD oil is, to all intents and purposes, unobtainable in this country, and the API themselves say that CF-4 is the modern replacement. I can get CF-4 in Halfords, which I think says on the tin something like "Suitable for older diesel engines".

Since this is readily available, if I change it twice a year along with the filter, I'm doing the best I can under the circumstances.

Would you agree with my strategy?

Jim

 

[grumpygit]

I have to disagree with all of that apart from the merry xmas bit.
Synthetic oil is very good.
Modern oil allows vehicles to last much longer.
There are one or two 'gotchas' about primitive seals and running in though, also a very dirty engine will suffer if you change from a no-detergent to a high detergent oil.
Plenty about all of this on motorcycle fora.
It's not for nothing that modern engines last for far longer at higher rpm.
You won't convince people about this, you have more chance of converting them to Buddhism. About the only concensus is to change it fairly often.

Happy New Year to all.
PS what kind of grease should I use on my anchor swivel ;-)

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Hope you've all had a good Xmas and looking forward to the New Year and I suppose in most cases an early and fair Spring........

Now we have a slightly different view on oils and other aspects of the more modern donkeys in which fully synthetic is suggested as a very good oil.

It seems to me that a lot of you are running older engines that the modern oils don't cater for and I suppose it's a case for old engines old technology oils applies.
I do respect all previous replies and in most points technical and informative, so thank you for that.

In my case though I have a 135hp naturally aspirated non turbo engine of what I would say is a modern engine in design as far a Perkins go, not been to old push indirect injected one but been the overhead cam engine with direct injection. Which I stated in a previous post is on semi synthetic even though the service book says that mineral API CD oil should be used.

So where do I go from here,

Do I throw out the semi synthetic and replace it with CF4 which looks to supercede CD ? even though it's run on semi for most of it's time (1996). At present I have not looked to see what is available where I am Wintering in Greece, but I will as soon as I'm sure a change would be for the better.

Iw395, You've sent me back some 40+ years to my racing days in mentioning castor oil and reminding me of the smell of Castrol R, what times thanks.

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It's the profit that makes all things expensive.......

 

[sailorman]

vyv, I hear what you are saying, but the sites I was refering to were ones like the API site and such like - http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/150916thAdd10308forprint-2.pdf

I also looked at various oil company sites, and if I remember correctly, Total, or was it Q8, made a CD oil for agricultural use, but it was in 45 gal drums, so I promptly dismissed it.

I'm working on the principle that CD oil is, to all intents and purposes, unobtainable in this country, and the API themselves say that CF-4 is the modern replacement. I can get CF-4 in Halfords, which I think says on the tin something like "Suitable for older diesel engines".

Since this is readily available, if I change it twice a year along with the filter, I'm doing the best I can under the circumstances.

Would you agree with my strategy?

Jim

Yes , i use Asda Oil same spec 5 lts for a tenner

 

[nedmin]

Some years ago I wrote to Castrol asking what oil farmers used in combines,as they are laid up for most of the year like boat engines.They said that for marine use I needed Castrol "Inboard",this leaches off a vapour (like the oil in combines)to protect the engine when not in use. I used this for many years until about 3yrs ago they discontinued it.I then went onto Comma mineral .The local stockist changed to Morris oils,so I now use Morris "Ring Free" API CG4/CF/S.I had a word with Morris technical and this is what they recommended.The engine is a Perkins 135 naturally aspirated.Been a superb engine so far.(1300 hrs).Incidentally I was warned not to use the CC grade,this is for canal boats where the engine needs more detergents(cool running )