Shared costs: what is considered reasonable?

[frans]

As a Dutch skipper of a 44ft Koopmans - living aboard, sailing 8 mnths/yr - I am often looking for 'opstappers' as we call it, crew that jumps on and off during a planned journey. This summer I planned a passage to the Azores, with a starting leg along the English south and a long finish to Vigo, Bordeaux, Brest etc.
I'm used to, or shall I say, we, the Dutch, are used to share the daily costs of such a trip. I wonder if this is a common habit in England too, and which daily costs seem reasonable to include.

 

[[70521]]

Food, beer, fuel, gas is what we share on our boat.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Daily running costs are acceptable. (Food, mooring fees etc)
Anything else brings you into commercial boating work in the UK and a host of regulations apply. (Boat must be coded and have minimum crewing standards etc)

 

[lw395]

I have found that different people have totally different views on this.
So, whatever you agree between you, but be clear and open about it and agree it in advance.
There are some boundaries which take you into the world of chartering for money, which has insurance and regulation implications.

 

[jordanbasset]

For me it would be food and drink and any extra marina costs as a result of the cruise that you would not normally incur. Wouldn't worry too much about fuel but can understand if that was included

 

[frans]

I have found that different people have totally different views on this.
So, whatever you agree between you, but be clear and open about it and agree it in advance.
There are some boundaries which take you into the world of chartering for money, which has insurance and regulation implications.

What are the boundaries?

 

[lw395]

What are the boundaries?

Grey areas!
You can as JM said, split obvious daily costs. Food, fuel, moorings....
I've been on boats where these are split among the crew only, the owner didn't pay as he'd provided the boat.
Sometimes racers contribute an amount per race towards sails etc.
In the limt you could divide the annual costs by the number of days sailed.
I believe it may make a difference whether it is an arrangement among people you know or whether you are soliciting customers from the general public.
If you are inviting random members of the public, you may be treated as commercial even if you are making a loss.
The rules may vary from country to country.
Your insurance company might have more restrictive views than the law. Read the small print and talk to them.

In the other extreme if you give crew too much for free, you can be considered their employer.

 

[Old Bumbulum]

If the crew are on board merely because you like to have company then charge them sharedcosts for sure, but if you need them to work the boat as crew that is, imo, a p!ss-take and it is you that should pay all expenses and repatriation tickets to boot should they want that.

 

[newtothis]

In the example you had advertised on the Crewing Opportunities Forum, you were looking for people to stand watches and take part in all aspects of sailing and boat chores. That indicates that you need them as much as they need you, i.e., you want to do the trip, but you need people to help.
In that case, sure, charge for actual expenses - food, fuel, moorings - divided equally, including you, on a per use basis. But any costs to do with the boat, safety equipment etc is out of bounds, as it is your choice to own and operate the boat and any efforts to subsidise that turn it into a commercial operation that will require the coding/insurance considerations .
By way of comparison, I did a trip to Guernsey through a crewing opportunity ad as the owner needed to get the boat out of the EU for a few days. He was going to do the trip anyway, but didn't want to single-hand the whole way. Other than buying him a few beers and sharing the cost of buying some food for the trip, he charged nothing, despite the fact that we motored most of the way and spent four days in the marina.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

For me it depends on if I want to go sailing and have invited people along, which is the majority of the time I sail with crew. If so as skipper I'm happy to pay the running costs of the boat inc fuel and moorings, food and non alcoholic drink (maybe a couple of beers for after) for crew. I wouldn't turn down a beer ashore or even a meal if offered as a way of a thank you and I wouldn't say no if they wanted to bring their own food even if it was just snacks.

If I've been asked by a couple of friends to take them sailing and I wasn't so fussed about going/wasn't so keen on the destination then I may ask them to chip in for the mooring fees, bring some food and drink along but I would swallow any running costs inc fuel as ultimately I've decided to take my boat out and go sailing, it would make little difference how many other people were on the boat.

 

[Ceejay]

I would suggest that the moment you speak of a daily charge, rather than a share of the actual daily costs, you are into the realms of commercial skippered chartering, and the vessel should be coded.

 

[frans]

I try to summarise the comments:
- the scale in contributions to the skipper ranges from accepting a free meal to a daily fee based on the annual costs;
- the dependency of the skipper on a crew defines his position on the scale;
- sailing with friends or new mates changes the perspective between recreational or commercial.

Now my personal situation:
- I can sail my 44ft solo, it is equipped to do so. Actually, on most trips I need to stitch the legs together between the spots where crew comes in. It is clear that long passages are safer with more able men for watchkeeping. Besides that, it is simply more fun to be among equal souls. Who are adventurous, or need seamiles for their qualifications, or fancy the skipper. Whatever, there is a mutual interest;
- In practice the crew is a haphazard mix of friends, acquiantances and sailors found by open sites. The general rule is that everyone does everything, as far as they are able to. The skipper has a 'free role', which means that I'm mainly concerned with the navigation, available 24h in case needed and cooking and nursing when the lot is down with green faces...;
- To be able to sail safely with a crew larger than one, I invested in 275N life-vests with AIS beacons, a 6P liferaft and smaller items like bedlinnen, cutlery etc.

Based on three seasons, one along the French side of the Channel, two along the Norwegian coast up to North Cape, I found out that the daily costs of food and drink, harbour fees and fuel are somewhere between €25-40/day/pp. Obviously, with móre crewmembers including the skipper, the split becomes less. The majority is food/drink, which level is defined by the crew itself as they do the shopping.
Now, I considered a daily fee of around €10 above the running costs, for the expenditures concerning the crew, reasonable.
No crewmember considered this a rip-off until now, what happens often is the situation as described by Iw395 above, that the crew offers to 'keep the skipper free'.
Does this fee brings me into 'commercial' sailing or is it still low on the scale?

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

I would suggest that the moment you speak of a daily charge, rather than a share of the actual daily costs, you are into the realms of commercial skippered chartering, and the vessel should be coded.

Precisely.

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

So you 'invested' in bed linen and cutlery

 

[LadyInBed]

I normally suggest that we share mooring, fuel, food and drink costs for the passage. When I do have crew it is normally only one person so sharing the cost between just crew has never arisen, but it's an interesting idea!
I suppose another consideration is the wealth of the skipper! If he can bear the cost, all well and good.

 

[Ceejay]

I would suggest that the moment you speak of a daily charge, rather than a share of the actual daily costs, you are into the realms of commercial skippered chartering, and the vessel should be coded.

Additionally I would say that if you’re touting for crew and laying down terms and conditions, it might be seen by the authorities as a sign that you are a business. Sharing costs among friends and relations is a totally different matter, and long may it remain that way.

 

[Biggles Wader]

I try to summarise the comments:
- the scale in contributions to the skipper ranges from accepting a free meal to a daily fee based on the annual costs;
- the dependency of the skipper on a crew defines his position on the scale;
- sailing with friends or new mates changes the perspective between recreational or commercial.

Now my personal situation:
- I can sail my 44ft solo, it is equipped to do so. Actually, on most trips I need to stitch the legs together between the spots where crew comes in. It is clear that long passages are safer with more able men for watchkeeping. Besides that, it is simply more fun to be among equal souls. Who are adventurous, or need seamiles for their qualifications, or fancy the skipper. Whatever, there is a mutual interest;
- In practice the crew is a haphazard mix of friends, acquiantances and sailors found by open sites. The general rule is that everyone does everything, as far as they are able to. The skipper has a 'free role', which means that I'm mainly concerned with the navigation, available 24h in case needed and cooking and nursing when the lot is down with green faces...;
- To be able to sail safely with a crew larger than one, I invested in 275N life-vests with AIS beacons, a 6P liferaft and smaller items like bedlinnen, cutlery etc.

Based on three seasons, one along the French side of the Channel, two along the Norwegian coast up to North Cape, I found out that the daily costs of food and drink, harbour fees and fuel are somewhere between €25-40/day/pp. Obviously, with móre crewmembers including the skipper, the split becomes less. The majority is food/drink, which level is defined by the crew itself as they do the shopping.
Now, I considered a daily fee of around €10 above the running costs, for the expenditures concerning the crew, reasonable.
No crewmember considered this a rip-off until now, what happens often is the situation as described by Iw395 above, that the crew offers to 'keep the skipper free'.
Does this fee brings me into 'commercial' sailing or is it still low on the scale?

I think what you describe is technically a commercial enterprise because you are charging a set amount per person per day and it is more than the actual amount spent during those days. IE you are including standing costs like life jackets and items of ships gear. Essentially you are subsidising your cruising by having paying guests even though you dont make a profit. Whether anyone would care or want to look into it i have no idea.

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

The trip is on Crewbay (in the private recreational section) as well, stating a fee for lifejackets, in addition to all other costs being shared between crew.
'Koopmans 44 Samuels' if anyone wants to look.

 

[frans]

I would suggest that the moment you speak of a daily charge, rather than a share of the actual daily costs, you are into the realms of commercial skippered chartering, and the vessel should be coded.

What does this 'coding' imply? Does it counts for every boat, whether or not it is foreign? Whether or not it has any Britisch citizen on board? I wouldn't mind for some paperwork.
Seen the fact the boat is fully equipped, I expect it can pass any survey. Something else are the needed qualifications, I have a RYA YM Offshore, but not commercially endorsed.

 

[frans]

So you 'invested' in bed linen and cutlery

I have already experienced that Mr Ohlin Karcher shows an interest above average in my posts. A sign of our times is the attraction that social media seem to have to commentators, keen to express their superior opinions. Cynicism is one of their weapons.
Yes, Mr Karcher, I do have bought duvets, cushions and bedlinnen, pot and pans, a dinner set, glasses and everything that's needed to turn a single man household into that of a family. And these things break on ships, and you also would like that your bedsheet has passed a laundry when you sleep aboard, wouldn't you? How despicable is it to ask a contribution for that?
I can't tell if you have any experience with a crew longer than a few days, but I grant you the joy, and the drawbacks, and then let us speak again.