Seriously thinking of going back to being a Raggie again!

[moresparks]

Oh woe is me.
I decided to buy this 27foot cruiser a couple of years ago to cut my teeth into the world of power boating. Unfortunately saying things have not gone to plan is an understatement.
From the outset I new this boat was going to be a bit of a project but even so…
I have 2 elderly (21years) Volvo Penta petrols and quite frankly they are very fragile and have only had a few hours running time in the 2 years. Many hundreds of pounds have been spent trying to get them reliable but still no joy.
All winter I had the top end rebuilt on one engine due to a broken timing belt. Having tested and all working fine it now suddenly won’t idle. I have changed the fuel filter, cleaned the carbs, and changed spark plugs all to no avail. Next it’s a compression test again and the ignition system. Really strange as the last time something similar occurred t was the fuel pump but that was new last year!
Anyway my question is I genuinely don’t know how to move forward.
Do I give up completely and try and sell, but I would lose so much money I wouldn’t be able to get back into boating probably.
Persevere and try and rectify the faults then sell? Problem being I have absolutely lost all confidence in these engines.
Or give up this year and just replace the engines in the autumn with a couple of good replacements.
Anybody been in a similar position? Money is fairly tight at the moment like everyone else so looking really at the most economical option.
Just to say the boat itself is absolutely ideal for me size wise.

 

[gjgm]

Two points; you no longer have any faith in the engines, so you are never going to be able to enjoy your boating;you have already "lost" the money- not realising (in the sense of making actual,I mean) the loss doesnt change anything.
Whether its cheaper to replace the engines, or chop out the boat and start again, you will have to estimate. But on an old boat, I would suggest any value is in the engines- the hull doesnt have much value.
Even a newer diesel engine might cost £350-500 a year in servicing, so if you have "only" spend a few hundred on these old petrols, maybe you havent invested/wasted so much, so far?
Maybe set yourself a budget, and then see what route that takes you, but perhaps dont be unrealistic about what someone else might pay for a "project" with duff propulsion?

 

[epervier]

at a guess, won't idle problem, the idle jet blocked with crud, engines don't like being ignored for long periods, petrol will evaporate and leave residue deposits of brown resin like substance, also they don't run well on old stale fuel, what lumps are they? just for interest what boat are they in?

 

[moresparks]

The boat is a Fairline Targa 27 and is absolutely ideal for me (actually wanted one for ages). The boat was possibly the best available in that price range at the time. The engines are the DOHC Aq171C’s. The sterndrives are 290SP and look in pretty good condition, but like everything its 21 years old.
I have to say I appreciated that the engines were due to be replaced but I was kind of hoping to get at least a couple of years running out of them.
I have heard on this forum that it’s relatively easy to remove the engines and replace with a couple of “nearly new” from places like Coastalrides. But I wondered if it is indeed actually that simple, having heard horror stories of the flywheel locked solid to the sterndrive.
As for the carbs – they have been stripped right down and cleaned and that has made no difference.

 

[mateyboy]

If the penta engines are anything like rover v8's it may well be the distributor drive gear worn to excess, so the spark is all over the place hence not running smoothly or at tickover.

 

[davedpc]

One of the good thing in having TWIN engines is that in moderation you can swop bits twixt the units.It will be most unusual to have the same fault on both engines unless its the fuel supply.

 

[moresparks]

Just an update:-
Compression test was round 170 170 160 170 so should be o/k. Disappointing that one cylinder was a little low but within the 10% range, I shouldn’t have thought that would cause my problem – any thoughts?
I also undertook basic checks on the ignition and distributor according to the manual and this looks o/k.
It’s looking like fuel and the symptoms are identical to the last time when the fuel pump was replaced so I may just need to eliminate that.
I would appreciate if anybody else has ideas, and if it is the pump why it should it fail so quickly?

 

[Caergybi_Man]

When I had a mirage with AQ145's I had a similar problem and was always checking/replacing dist cap, points, coil etc. I did find it was susceptable to stale fuel and/or lower octane than what the engines where designed for. Adding an octane booster and redex helped matters, also improved with use, didnt like long periods of inactivity. Got to the point just before I sold the boat that I was seriously considering replacing with an electronic ignition.

 

[rafiki_]

My gut feel is stale fuel. As previously posted, petrol does go off, probably within a season. I'm not sure additives will help. So try some fresh fuel.

 

[tico]

AQ171s are very susceptable to going out of tune (at least thats my experience). one point to watch is the timing belt that sometimes jumps a tooth and causes all sorts of running probs. It really doesnt help that VP designed the cooling system so that the water pipe is only sealed with hope (no clamp) and when it drips onto the crankshaft pulley , the water is thrown onto the timing pulleys.... Great design (not)

I got so fedup with mine that i ripped them out and fitted a pair of diesels from Mike at Lancing Marine.... fairly major cost and you need to be a competant engineer (or have deep pockets), but it brought a new dimension to boating. Comparable to the sun coming out after weeks of cloud and rain!

 

[Trundlebug]

It really does sound like a stale fuel problem.

As I have a similar issue with fuel going off in 2 classic cars which are rarely used, I bought some additive from Frost which stops it going stale. Worth considering once you have sorted out the problem and cleaned / refreshed the tanks. It's not just octane booster, it's a fuel preserver to stop it turning to wax / jelly.

Modern petrol is awful quality compared to the old 4 star, which I never had any problem with. It's hygroscopic and short lived, hence the problems. If you're not using it within 2 months then it's worth adding fuel preservative.

Just a comment on one of the posts above. Don't be put off by the cost of servicing diesels, if you are considering convering.

Diesels do not cost £300-£500 per year to service, that's complete hogwash unless you like throwing money away or you've got 1200hp MTU's.

Approximate costs:

Oil - £50 for 25L
Oil filter - £6 ea
Fuel filter (primary) - £5ea
Fuel filter - secondary -£6 ea
Air filter - (rarely needed, last for years) - £10ea
Drive belts - (rarely needed, last for up to 5 years) - £15ea
Gearbox oil EP90 - £20 for 5L.
Er.. that's it

Not sure how anyone adds the above to make £300-£500 ??? Unless you're buying direct from Volvo, which would frankly be quite mad. Motor factors sell the same stuff from the same manufacturers but without the magic word "Volvo" on the box and at around 1/10th the cost.

Obviously depends upon the size of the engines, but if you're doing the work yourself and in this case you obviously are, "hogwash" is the only word I can politely use!

 

[rafiki_]

Oil - £50 for 25L??

Where do you get this from? Is it Spry Crisp and Dry?

I paid £45 for 15L, and this was not expensive stuff.

 

[mateyboy]

I guess it depends how wide the guy selling the oil is !

 

[moresparks]

Many thanks for the responses.
Just an update:-
I have rigged a safe temporary fuel tank with fresh petrol and still no change which would eliminate “stale fuel”. I did notice that the acceleration pump on the first carburettor (nearest the front) seems to jam in comparison to the other carbs, so I have removed the carb for further investigation.
All the gaskets are new and “torqued” according to the manual.
Forums like this are really useful to give me the confidence to tackle these jobs so a big thank you.
Just a question…
I have a couple of Solex 44PA1 repair kits where I have replaced all the gaskets .. but the idle screw looks totally different in the kit. Has anybody swapped out the idle screw successfully from the one in the kit?

 

[moresparks]

Hi …Just to let you know that it’s all working now.
Sometimes it’s easy to get caught in a loop and although you can check everything if one thing is done out of order you can still have problems.
It looks like dirt in the fuel and despite cleaning the carbs, re-cleaning again did the trick, especially the idle jets.
Thank you for your help.

 

[NeilT]

Please remember in all this that not all aftermarket parts are created equal.
The best bet is to stick to parts of similar quality to the originals.
ie Bosch for electrical and Crossland or Mann for filters. I wouldnt trust anything but original Volvo or Dayco belts.
Volvo B23's last forever with care but if you fill it with aftermarket rubbish it's not a volvo anymore.
HTH
N

 

[oldgit]

First proper boat had 2 x Mercruiser petrols which were a money pit, completely unreliable from day one.If the boat started it was amazing,if it got you most of the way to where you wanted to go it was a triumph,it rarely got you home unscathed.
The Mercruiser outdrives were much much worse.
Got rid of it as soon as I could to someone far away enough who would not bring it back.


"I paid £45 for 15L, and this was not expensive stuff."

Your local motor factor(mine is company called Aghabridge) will have some own brand or "Comma" type fleet oil at around £50.00 or poss bit less ,but you will need to buy a 25L drum.
Primary diesel filters are about £2.50 and secondary filters about £8.00.
5 litres of car shampoo or 5L own brand "Gunk" degreaser all around a tenner.



"Please remember in all this that not all aftermarket parts are created equal."

1400 hours total over 8 years......have yet to be let down by a single aftermarket item.
Actually its twice that really as have two engines

Only stuff that has proved a bit rubbish over the years was (Volvo)gearshift and prop shaft seals

 

[NeilT]

With respect I can't see that 8 yrs and two engines gives a complete picture especially if you are a fastidious owner and have the knowledge that you obviously do.
I'm more trying to warn people not to let your local spannerman get away with cheap stuff at volvo prices.
I'm not trying to be funny but in over 20yrs of working on that particular engine in boats and cars I have seen a fair number of problems with CHEAP aftermarket stuff.
N

 

[Kawasaki]

Oil - £50 for 25L??

Where do you get this from? Is it Spry Crisp and Dry?

I paid £45 for 15L, and this was not expensive stuff.

Just paid 31 quids for 25litres of semi synthetic turbo diesel friendly from the local motor factors.
I reckon Trundlebug's shopping list is priced realistically.