Series (jordan) drogues?

[Seagreen]

Does anyone have any experience of Series (or Jordan) type drogues?

Reading about the Jordan Series drogue, and compared with the SeaBrake, I was wondering (in my obsessed techie way) about the difficulties and time consuming effort needed to retrieve the Series drogue, and I wondered if attaching a shot line to the outward end would assist in its retrieval?

I was looking into making one for myself - not technicaly difficult but immensely time consuming (hence the retail price), but the retrieval time makes it impractical for use in breaking seas in estuaries. Unless it could be hauled in "back end" first.

 

[Ludd]

Does anyone have any experience of Series (or Jordan) type drogues?

Reading about the Jordan Series drogue, and compared with the SeaBrake, I was wondering (in my obsessed techie way) about the difficulties and time consuming effort needed to retrieve the Series drogue, and I wondered if attaching a shot line to the outward end would assist in its retrieval?

I was looking into making one for myself - not technicaly difficult but immensely time consuming (hence the retail price), but the retrieval time makes it impractical for use in breaking seas in estuaries. Unless it could be hauled in "back end" first.

Good idea, but I would think the retrieval line would set up a twisting motion which could collapse the drogue(lets) and further complicate retrieval!

 

[Seagreen]

I see what you mean. There would need to be weights along the shot line, and then it would still wrap round the cones, and the whole lot would be a devil to retrieve. I wonder if anyone has actually tried it?

 

[Poignard]

Does anyone have any experience of Series (or Jordan) type drogues?

Reading about the Jordan Series drogue, and compared with the SeaBrake, I was wondering (in my obsessed techie way) about the difficulties and time consuming effort needed to retrieve the Series drogue, and I wondered if attaching a shot line to the outward end would assist in its retrieval?

I was looking into making one for myself - not technicaly difficult but immensely time consuming (hence the retail price), but the retrieval time makes it impractical for use in breaking seas in estuaries. Unless it could be hauled in "back end" first.

I remember seeing a video ecording of one in use, taken from a helicopter on the USA coast. Maybe it's on Youtube, or perhaps on the manufacturer's website?

 

[electrosys]

I see what you mean. There would need to be weights along the shot line, and then it would still wrap round the cones, and the whole lot would be a devil to retrieve. I wonder if anyone has actually tried it?

I think the other way around might be more successful - place weights along the drogue line (which you want to be deeply immersed) and use a floating trip line - with a swivel or three several feet apart where the lines join.
But no guarantees.

 

[Ludd]

KISS

I think the other way around might be more successful - place weights along the drogue line (which you want to be deeply immersed) and use a floating trip line - with a swivel or three several feet apart where the lines join.
But no guarantees.

In the conditions you'd be using it,less complication the better! The principle of series drogue is when part of drogue line is out o f water or at least in trough of waves,the rest is immersed in body of wave,so some "droguelets " are always effective.

 

[johnabbott893]

Does anyone have any experience of Series (or Jordan) type drogues?

Reading about the Jordan Series drogue, and compared with the SeaBrake, I was wondering (in my obsessed techie way) about the difficulties and time consuming effort needed to retrieve the Series drogue, and I wondered if attaching a shot line to the outward end would assist in its retrieval?

I was looking into making one for myself - not technicaly difficult but immensely time consuming (hence the retail price), but the retrieval time makes it impractical for use in breaking seas in estuaries. Unless it could be hauled in "back end" first.

I have an unused one, thankfully. In the information somewhere it states that you should not use a trip line because it interferes with the operation of the drogue. Somebody must have tried it to come to that conclusion. I did a test deployment in F6. It was quite easy to pull it back in by hand as long as you kept in rhythm with the boat. I pulled when it went slackish and locked it off when it went tight. 100 drogues took me about 10min.

Deploying and retrieving the drogue is a major operation. Its easy but takes time and concentration. It is not something you could do to cross a bar at the mouth of your average estuary.

 

[Talbot]

Jordan drogue is totally the wrong thing for a bar crossing. The way it works is that the line with the drogulets has a weight at the far end. Thus when no pressure on the system, the end drops down and droguelets are less and less effective. As weight comes on the line straightens out and more and more drogulets come into effect - thus it rides the initial shock of a breaking wave, and then is slowed down to go through the wave. Much less kinetic shock.

Sailrite provide sew your own kits, with all the drogulets cut out, just needing the final sewing, and then inserting into the line (most manpower intensive part) This offers quite good savings if you have time, but short on money.

 

[electrosys]

In the conditions you'd be using it,less complication the better! The principle of series drogue is when part of drogue line is out o f water or at least in trough of waves,the rest is immersed in body of wave,so some "droguelets " are always effective.

If you were correct, then I'd agree with you. However, the principle is that the series drogue should be completely immersed, and sink backwards whenever slack in the drogue line occurs.

"The series drogue behaved well. When the towline went slack the weight on the end of the drogue sank, pulling the conical elements backwards and taking up some, but not all, of the slack. This is a desirable characteristic. There was no tendency of the series drogue to reverse direction or foul.

Under storm conditions it would be desirable for the drogue to ride at least 20 to 30 feet below the surface so it would not be affected by local waves or caught by a breaking wave crest. The series drogue is held down by the anchor at the end of the line."

Investigation of the use of drogues to improve the safety of sailing yachts.
US Coastguard Research and Development Center, May 1987

 

[DownWest]

Just a thought, if you are DIYing. Why not fit a grommet by the apex of each drogue and thread a trip line alongside the main warp. Pulling on this would progressively collapse the drogues as they are turned inside out. Any body have a thought on this?
A

 

[JunkMing]

Don Jordan was emphatically against the use of any sort of trip-line with the JSD, as the risk of the two lines twisting together and impeding the proper functioning of the droguettes is too great. Despite this I made provision, when building my own JSD (see a photo here May 2009 - www.thesimplesailor.com/photographs.html ), for a floating trip-line, buoyed at the after end, to aid retrieval. However when, after 12,000 ocean miles of keeping the JSD ready and prepared, I finally had to deploy it, in survival conditions off south-west Iceland this summer, I decided that I could not take the risk of anything going wrong, and deployed it without the trip-line. Don't forget that this is a life and death thing, with no room for fancy untried theories about what might or might not work. You've only got one chance. Jordan was a brilliant aeronautical engineer, who came at the problem free of any of the prejudices that we long-time sailors tend to accumulate, analysed and tested everything meticulously, and came up with what is probably the most effective heavy-weather tactic for small boats. Once deployed (with the correct bridle and dedicated attachment points - there is no room for skimping here) the JSD keeps the boat absolutely stern on, with minimum yaw, and decelerates any forward movement with a delightfully elastic and floaty ease. Even the biggest and steepest seas become quite unthreatening. After 12 hours deployment I lost the drogue through a silly mistake on my part when setting it, that resulted in chafe. I don't imagine I would have had any problem retrieving it, as I subsequently retrieved my standby device - a sea anchor made from a B & Q sand bag - relatively easily using the technique already mentioned on this thread - hauling in during the slack moments then taking a turn round a cleat before the pressure came on again. Good exercise! Even if you had to cut the thing loose, at least it would have saved your life or your ship or both in the meantime. I would never, ever go to sea without one, and so am now building my second. I don't think it's worth sewing your own cones, as you can buy them for 99p each (Roddy Coleman, Neptune's Locker). Fixing them to the line is easy but time-consuming - a perfect job for those long winter evenings. My advice is simply to do it as the designer intended, nothing more, nothing less. He spent something like ten years perfecting the design. That deserves some respect!

 

[NickiCrutchfield]

Roger,
Thanks for the above as it answers yesterday's question to the group. Thanks also for the link for buying drogues. I have one additional question I am struggling to find an answer to and that is how big to make the drogue. The smallest size quoted anywhere on the net is for a boat of 10000 lbs displacement. I will only weigh about 4500 lbs (max) so how long is yours and what is your displacement fully loaded?
Cheers,
Nicki

 

[JunkMing]

Nicki, I took the generally available tables then using a bit of maths extrapolated from them. Fortunately at that time Don Jordan was still alive and although he was not well and did not usually respond to requests for information he was sufficiently interested to look at the problem himself and confirm my estimate of 86 cones for a displacement of c 2500lbs. Without doing the maths I would think that around 95 cones would do you. For my new JSD I intend to use 80 cones. Having monitored it in action for 12 hours I feel that would soften the deceleration even further while retaining adequte braking power. With two cones per metre that gives 40 metres, plus I have a lead and a weighted tail of about 20 metres each, giving 80 metres in total. The tail is longer than recommended for the bigger drogues, but this is to ensure that there is enough length and enough weight far enough astern to avoid the whole drogue being influenced by a single wave system.

 

[NickiCrutchfield]

Brilliant Roger, many thanks. Quite a guy Don Jordan. I had a very pleasant read of his site.
Nicki

 

[Seagreen]

Deploying and retrieving the drogue is a major operation. Its easy but takes time and concentration. It is not something you could do to cross a bar at the mouth of your average estuary.

That's my principal issue, as what I really feel I need is a quick and easy device to deploy, and quick to retrieve. Actually, the B&Q gravel bag seems the thing - or I'll run up a better version on my machine.

 

[Seagreen]

Roger,
I will only weigh about 4500 lbs (max) so how long is yours and what is your displacement fully loaded?
Cheers,
Nicki

US CG report with a graph for the data is http://www.seriesdrogue.com/coastguardreport/

 

[electrosys]

That's my principal issue, as what I really feel I need is a quick and easy device to deploy, and quick to retrieve.

The warnings against fitting a trip-line are often quoted, but there are reports on the web of people using them 'for real', and I've yet to read of any snarl-ups.

The original design for the series droque features a trip-line attached to the anchor weight. (Pagan, 1889. US Patent 396229)

I'd say that some testing of the use of trip-lines is warranted, as ease of retrieval remains a major issue.

 

[VO5]

The warnings against fitting a trip-line are often quoted, but there are reports on the web of people using them 'for real', and I've yet to read of any snarl-ups.

The original design for the series droque features a trip-line attached to the anchor weight. (Pagan, 1889. US Patent 396229)

I'd say that some testing of the use of trip-lines is warranted, as ease of retrieval remains a major issue.

Difficulties in reteival are not the only problem.

One could argue that this method would certainly slow down the boat, but would it give the boat directional stability is the question.

 

[Talbot]

[/B]Difficulties in reteival are not the only problem.
One could argue that this method would certainly slow down the boat, but would it give the boat directional stability is the question.

On a cat definitely due to the bridle

on a mono it will stop the stern swinging around the keel, so yes

on a mono with a swing keel (raised) main directional impetus will be from the wind and wave train. The drogue should keep you pointing in the right direction.


However. There is going to be an enormous load on the bridle and particularly on the cleat that is securing the bridle. This point will need to be considered as in reality you need a new securing point with significant strengthening and load distribution, plus it is essential that any possible chafe point is eradicated.

 

[beneteau_305_553]

I have used a paranchor and it was too fragile and it split. (I probably had the line too short) I have replaced it with a builders bag which works well. They are very strong and easy to handle.

It works like a drogue and I deploy from the stern. Its easy to recover, just put the engine on in reverse and as the load comes off the line just take it in and tip out the water when you get to the bag.

It doesent need any weight attached. the weight of water keeps it down just below the surface. The turbulence in the surface caused by the bag also breaks up the following wave crest. Once deployed you wonder why you put it out as it seems so calm.

I use a bridle to the stern cleats and no trip line. Under bare poles slows the boat down to about 1 to 2 knots depending on the conditions. This is a nice speed as it means the rudder works to keep the boat straight . Beam on to a sea in these conditions is not good in my opinion. A sea anchor or parachute deployed from the bow is also horrible as the boat does drift downwind backwards and the rudder causes the boat to slew sideways.