Series (jordan) drogues?

webcraft said:
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I am frankly astounded by VO5's postings on this subject and am at a loss as to what his motivation for these posts might be.

Although we have never had to deploy it we made one for our Atlantic cruise in 2006-2007 and it remains on board as our ultimate solution. Our own extensive research convinced us it was easily the simplest safest solution for a small lightly crewed yacht. The only caveat is that you need some searoom to run downwind.

All accounts I have read of people using a series drogue state that it not only slows the boat substantially but also keeps the stern square-on to the seas. That is the whole purpose of the device, and it is hard to see how it could do one without the other. It has been extensively tested by the US Coastguard and used in anger by several far more experienced sailors than VO5'

As for agressive posters - like road rage, this seems to be a phenomenon that is on the increase. They only do it to get a response so the best thing to do is ignore them, though it can be difficult. I have been known to retaliate myself, but it is usually pointless. Just let them rant on and ignore them.

- W
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I am not going to post on this thread again, but you comments deserve a reply.

Let me ask you two questions.

1. You admit to having one of these on board but you also admit to never having used it, so therefore, what practical experience do you have ?

2, I have been sailing since the very early 1970's which is more than 40 years at sea overall. I have alaso served as a deck officer in the Merchant Marine.
I therefore am armed with two perspectives, the sailing perspective and the Big Ship perspective. Do you yourself contribute armed with these two perspectives and if so, what prompts you to have the idea that all this sea time serves for nought ?
 
How Would A Yacht Get Rolled With A Properly Deployed Jordan Series Drogue?

I for one am interested in what VO5 was going to say. VO5 claimed that a rogue wave would still roll you if a Jordan Series Drogue was being used. Then at post No 30, Talbot's, at 12-12-09 10:15, Talbot disparages VO5 when in fact he should have asked VO5 to explain. Then it all becomes a bit pointless after that.

These forums are excellent for transferring information, they are also unregulated and uncontrolled with regards to the quality of the data, however, some confidence can be built based on the self regulating nature of an open forum i.e. there is a high enough volume of people monitoring these forum to place an opinion.

So the question still remains. If running before the waves with a Jordan Series Drogue, with the boat slowed down and in control, is it possible to be rolled?
 
VO5 said:
I am not going to post on this thread again, but you comments deserve a reply.

Let me ask you two questions.

1. You admit to having one of these on board but you also admit to never having used it, so therefore, what practical experience do you have ?

2, I have been sailing since the very early 1970's which is more than 40 years at sea overall. I have alaso served as a deck officer in the Merchant Marine.
I therefore am armed with two perspectives, the sailing perspective and the Big Ship perspective. Do you yourself contribute armed with these two perspectives and if so, what prompts you to have the idea that all this sea time serves for nought ?
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Two comments:

1/ Big ship experience in no way qualifies you to have any opinion on a series drogue. They have no application to big ships.

2/ It is not how much experience you have, it is how much you learn from it :D

- W
 
VO5 said:
I am not going to post on this thread again, but you comments deserve a reply.

Let me ask you two questions.

1. You admit to having one of these (...) what practical experience do you have ?

2, I have been sailing since the very early 1970's (...) all this sea time serves for nought ?
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What a pointless post !
You start off by saying that you're not going to post again, (shades of "it's my bat and ball and if I can't be 'in' then we're not going to play ...") and then you ask two questions - which - if they are answered - the respondent won't get any reply from you !!

And as for all this "I'll discuss the subject by email, but not on the forum" stuff - if your views are valid, then why not share them ?

If you're not willing to post publicly, then the only conclusion that can reasonably be drawn is that your claims cannot be substantiated.

You still have the opportunity to make a case for your claims and I, for one, am interested in your viewpoint.
 
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I would be interested in the explanation as well. The whole point of a series drogue is that it is designed to produce a large and constant drag so how the boat can suddenly yaw and be rolled by a breaking wave is hard to see.

- W
 
JunkMing said:
However when, after 12,000 ocean miles of keeping the JSD ready and prepared, I finally had to deploy it, in survival conditions off south-west Iceland this summer,.............. Jordan was a brilliant aeronautical engineer, who came at the problem free of any of the prejudices that we long-time sailors tend to accumulate, analysed and tested everything meticulously, and came up with what is probably the most effective heavy-weather tactic for small boats. Once deployed (with the correct bridle and dedicated attachment points - there is no room for skimping here) the JSD keeps the boat absolutely stern on, with minimum yaw, and decelerates any forward movement with a delightfully elastic and floaty ease. Even the biggest and steepest seas become quite unthreatening................ I would never, ever go to sea without one, and so am now building my second. ................... My advice is simply to do it as the designer intended, nothing more, nothing less. He spent something like ten years perfecting the design. That deserves some respect!
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This is the voice of experience, and the one that I would listen to on the subject of the drogue. This is a person who has sailed the miles, used the drogue and reported on its performance.

Simple really.

Whilst others may have great age, many many years of a wide range of nautical experiences, done many, many miles in in various vessels, be superbly well qualified navigators, have been fortunate enough to have met other great seafarers I still think I am more impressed by the report of a man who has actually used the device.

I am also impressed by Mr Jordan's experience and learning as an engineer and by the USCG report.

Experience and research, I think, counts for more than opinion, no matter how vehemently held.
 
Not Just the US Coastguard

I made a Series Drogue for our Atlantic crossing in 2002. Dan Jordon was most helpful. I did lots of research at the time and the Southampton Institute also conducted tests in their huge tank. Only the Jordon drogue prevented a roll. That test was published in Heavy Weather Sailing with photos included, convinced me. I looked at Dan's site recently and he was discussing the advantages of anchoring from the stern. Boats that did this during hurricanes actually survived, there was less yawing and plunging up and down. Certainly gave me something to think about. I have noticed a few boats in the US, which are anchored but not occupied for days on end, have been anchored stern to. We feel safer in Ocean passages having this drogue on board.
 
Fascadale said:
This is the voice of experience, and the one that I would listen to on the subject of the drogue. This is a person who has sailed the miles, used the drogue and reported on its performance.
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Like yourself I also have the highest regard for Roger Taylor and his opinions on matters nautical. The only frustrating thing about his experiences using the series drogue is that he never got to recover the drogue under really trying conditions. His opinion on it's ease of recovery is something that I would have valued.
 
There seems to be mixed opinion on the recovery of a JSD but there is more information becoming available on the web. Without doubt it's a very effective piece of kit in extreme conditions (well documented) and I have one on order. If you survive then there's plenty of time to wind it in!
As for the Troll, ignore him.
 
Don Jordan's anchoring assumptions?..

Reading into the USCG report, I notice that Jordan realised that modern yachts (ie., those with fin/skeg type keels lie better when anchored stern-to the weather. Now Cleone is a real plumb stem, long straight keel with a deep forefoot kind of boat. However, she has her mast, and lots of rigging forwrd of her midpoint. Would Jordan's dictum of anchoring and running from the stern still hold true?
 
Would A Jordan Series Drogue Work In Rogue Wave Conditions? Yes, I Believe It Would.

The link below describes the design of the Jordan Series drogue and claims how it would prevent pitch pole and capsize. If you read through the specification notes you can establish why a series drogue is better that a single drogue. Quite simply it is possible for a combination of conditions to exist where for a small period of time a single drogue may not have any water flowing by it causing drag. A series drogue will always have drogues with water flowing by therefore will always be producing significant drag.

Having had a good read through the Jordan Site and the site below, I can accept the principles are sound, the series drogue design overcomes the problems of a single drogue and stern deployment is favourable.

It all hinges around the velocity of water passing the drogue. The drag force is multiplied by 4 for every doubling of the speed as the formula for drag contains velocity squared which results in drag force increasing according to power law i.e. more than a linear relationship and not limited when a maximum speed is reached.

I guess there is always a rogue wave capable of overpowering any yacht with the best drogues deployed correctly. A series drogue would certainly give you the best chance of surviving a genuine rogue wave in a storm.

The site does claim that in these conditions you are likely to take water into your cockpit, hence good drains and strong doors are a must.

http://www.oceanbrake.com/jordan'snotes.html

Anti Flame Note: the statement "I can accept" above is not arrogant or dismissive of actual experience of using the drogue. Just trying to answer my own question.
 
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