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Those days are over. You get the qualification you have applied for or you get nowt.
Self taught > years of sailing > then doing RYA courses: worthwhile? discouraging even?
- Thread starter Adios
- Start date
xyachtdave
Well-known member
Don't be put off by the owner, he's a really decent bloke and very accomplished. I think if you run a business from a marina you do need to be a bit offish with people on the pontoons, you'd never get anything done otherwise, spend all day chatting to people!
If you can get in and out the lock without hitting anything or stressing yourself out you don't need a day skipper practical course.
If people keep shouting at you, or ships honk their horns 5 times at you regularly, then I'd recommend day skipper theory.
Another general point I was going to make is while we all think we're good, the 30 years experience = 1 year repeated 30 times is definitely a thing.
Maybe doing a YM exam would help get us out of our comfort zones, particularly if we did it in unfamiliar waters.?
Biggles Wader
Well-known member
Which German Windfall boats? Were they the RAF ones from Kiel?I can't lay claim to being 'self-taught', for HMQueen and her officers and servants had a hand in this at various times, including a certain ex-RAF Regiment Squadron Leader with a Rival 38 out of Falmouth, and an ex-Shackleton/Nimrod Instructor/Navigator out of St Mawgan and JSASTC in a pair of Nichi 55s. Some old German wooden 'Windfall' boats figured along the way.
ylop
Well-known member
The wind speed generally gets faster the greater the altitude! F8 would be unusual in summer months at sea level (but horizontal rain may not be!) - I'm not sure what point they would call off a YM course. The thing about the WoS is there are so many sea lochs etc that there's often somewhere to find shelter even when its windy, and I suspect there must be as many times where there's not enough wind to show you can handle the boat under sail as there are when there's too much?
Windfinder.com - Wind and weather statistic Oban Airport/Scotland
Windfinder.com - Wind and weather statistic Inverkip
Windfinder.com - Wind and weather statistic Stornoway Airport
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
As both a sailor and a climber, I'm very well acquainted with that. But Ben Nevis is ascended from sea level, and every time I've done it, it's been blowing old boots, summer or winter, in Fort William. Shelter, yes, much like the Solent. I live on the south side of the Isle of Wight, and it's 10 kn windier at home than most places inside the Solent. All the same, us southerners are not reckoned to be a bit soft for nowt. the weather really is better down here. We often see deep frontal systems crossing the West coast when we have sunshine, and a few fluffy, benign clouds.
zoidberg
Well-known member
Yes. I don't remember all that much about them now - and my early logbooks are long gone - but I seem to recall that they'd do about 4 knots under full sail and 3 knots under full engine.... when that was functional!
I got invited along not because I could 'hand, reef and steer' ( not in the early days ) but because HMQueen employed me as a navigator, I had a CONSOL chart, and I could get a usable fix in any conditions. I could also request and bring with me a fully-detailed met forecast for the intended route from my station's Senior Met Officer and could sketch up a synoptic chart from the after-midnight Coastal Station Reports - and a prebaratic of sorts for the following morning....
....that made me worth carrying, provided I kept out of the way and didn't interrupt the adults when they were doing serious stuff like anchoring or sail changing in the dark.
Biggles Wader
Well-known member
The one I sailed on was about 50 ft and a lot faster than that. Long after the RAF owned her though.
awol
Well-known member
I'm saving that to use in my "Stay in the Solent" posts to disencourage the invasion of my favourite places and anchorages.Don't discount 'The Forty-Knot Fog'.
See Oban Bay in August.....
doug748
Well-known member
Following on from interesting responses in this thread How did you learn to be such a safe and capable sailor?
I'm wondering how the many self taught and piecemeal taught sailors, after many years of successful sailing, would find the experience of proving themselves to a RYA instructor to do a yachtmaster practical for instance? I guess it would depend a lot on the instructor, if he/she's flexible in accepting varying reasonable methods or if its "the RYA way or the highway". I'm thinking of doing some RYA stuff to open up some opportunities that need proven competence and can imagine I'll fall short on technique. I'm not a proud sort but I can imagine it will likely be disconcerting, probably making me nervous and gradually I'll start cocking everything up and look like my only boating experience was in Hyde Park
What experiences have you had with this?
I did a practical course as an oldster and hated it. Waste of 500 quid that could have been usefully spent on the boat. For me at least but I am not very clubable and hate the Scout camp atmosphere that tends to hang around training events.
Hopeless outfit based in Poole, though I doubt the same personnel are still around so don't let that put you off. Bloke in charge ran it like an NCO. Would have jumped ship but it would have been letting down other paying crew.
Put the dish towards new sails is my advice.
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Adios
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finally a dissenter! Any more insight into what was annoying about it?
I might put myself through the process no mater what as going from mostly solo to having kids I've got to be responsible for others on board and that's something to learn from instructors used to herding less experienced crews. Watching the instructor might be as useful to me as what is taught, though hopefully not the instructor you mentioned who made the experience a misery!
ylop
Well-known member
you'll be glad it was because anytime its calm in fort William the midges savage anyone who exposes some skin! Tomorrow looks like it could be that particular form of hell!
oh I know - I spent too much time as a youngin on the IoW. But I think "better" is a relative term. It rains less, its warmer and it might be less windy. So you are more likely to get sunburn, have too little wind to sail and arrive at the marina to discover a hosepipe ban! But between easter and October there won't be many days where a YM course can't run from either a Clyde or Oban marina starting point.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
Scottish midges are the reason I’m a winter climber.
capnsensible
Well-known member
My advice would be to go into the course with a positive attitude. Having coached a lot of topics over time, the ones who benefit are the ones who have open minds and a willingness to learn. On sailing courses, that's been nearly everyone.
Go in miserable and you will be miserable.....
xyachtdave
Well-known member
Two practical courses and one shore based exam that put me off the RYA pathway, apologies to Captain Sensible etc who appears to run a good ship!
Assumed knowledge was zero, I’d done one weekend and wanted to learn so opted for comp crew. Other people on board doing day skipper and what was known as coastal skipper.
In an ideal world I’d learn from the other crew as they’re experienced….nope they’ve done one weekend previously too and unable to grasp the most basic knot.
The skipper had the hump with them all week, understandably, when one of them got lost doing a simple night passage and asked me to steer ‘red 370’ the skipper went nuts and said ‘what are you f’ing talking about!’
Second course, a similar boat full of misfits which included a middle aged wet blanket that lived with his Mum who accused me of nicking his wallet. I told him I didn’t need his pocket money. The skipper, another crew and myself searched the boat and found it when he was ashore, it was in his pile of dirty clothes….Mum wasn’t on board to tidy up!
Shore based exam…week started with a couple of thicko’s…‘What’s a degree?’ and after patient explanation of where North South East and West can be found on a compass…’I don’t get it’.
Exam day, they’re plotting a course to steer over the land part of the chart, I’ve finished, examiner notices what they’ve done, takes my chart and they copy it.
We all leave with the same qualification.
Assumed knowledge was zero, I’d done one weekend and wanted to learn so opted for comp crew. Other people on board doing day skipper and what was known as coastal skipper.
In an ideal world I’d learn from the other crew as they’re experienced….nope they’ve done one weekend previously too and unable to grasp the most basic knot.
The skipper had the hump with them all week, understandably, when one of them got lost doing a simple night passage and asked me to steer ‘red 370’ the skipper went nuts and said ‘what are you f’ing talking about!’
Second course, a similar boat full of misfits which included a middle aged wet blanket that lived with his Mum who accused me of nicking his wallet. I told him I didn’t need his pocket money. The skipper, another crew and myself searched the boat and found it when he was ashore, it was in his pile of dirty clothes….Mum wasn’t on board to tidy up!
Shore based exam…week started with a couple of thicko’s…‘What’s a degree?’ and after patient explanation of where North South East and West can be found on a compass…’I don’t get it’.
Exam day, they’re plotting a course to steer over the land part of the chart, I’ve finished, examiner notices what they’ve done, takes my chart and they copy it.
We all leave with the same qualification.
Adios
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oh dear!
Did you ever find out what the f he was talking about?
Reminds me of a paddi diving course me and a friend started in Sini. One student was so fat he had no hips for the weight belt to grip on and it kept falling off. We used up most of our oxygen just bobbing there while the instructor was trying the same thing to a attach it hoping this time it would stay on, again and again. After a while it was clear the instructor was a feckless idiot so we didn't go back the next day and managed to get a refund. Diving is too dangerous to do it with idiots and very fat people.
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Skylark
Well-known member
Adding to this, my opening brief to students includes “the more you put it, the more you’ll get out”.
I didn’t know the Clyde very well when I signed up for YM prep and exam week almost 20 years ago.
The topography of the Clyde generally throws up some interesting weather. Squally winds can barrel down the hills and hit water like an on-coming Avanti West Coast train ?
I did my YMI course in a February and at one point the anemometer registered a peak of 50 kts. Not long ago, we were doing CS picking upon a mooring buoy under sail in a squall with 35 kts. A modern AWB is very controllable in high winds with a heavily reefed sail plan. It’s good experience, especially because the sea state doesn’t have time to respond to the high wind squalls.
xyachtdave
Well-known member
I think it was something like red (port) and 370 was degrees, which the more salty members of YBW will realise was causing the confusion.
To be fair to the school and instructor, you need a mixed bag on the boat, I’d say 5 is too many for one instructor, a couple of comp crews and a day skipper or two would be ideal.
You’d assume you can leave your day skippers to steer the boat towards a buoy and say leave it to starboard without doing something completely crazy.
It all falls down when they’ve not had the minimum pre course experience and then everyone else on board suffers.
capnsensible
Well-known member
Tough place to get your students night hours in during the summer!
Skylark
Well-known member
A couple of weeks ago we did an overnight from Gareloch head to Lamlash. I don't think those nice chaps listening to Ch73 expected a call from a recreational boat at that time of the late eveningTough place to get your students night hours in during the summer!
ylop
Well-known member
oh, I'm intrigued what clubable means... does it involve being beaten into shape with a club? or joining in the social scene? One thing having children who have gone through a modern (Scottish) education has shown me is that I could be much more coachable. Being open to learning seems to be something they've grown up with, understanding how and why they learn etc. My generation did not get this so I think we are nowhere near as malleable as students.
having never been in the scouts I'm equally puzzled by this analogy. I briefly helped our local sea scouts out with some stuff and had no desire to join their camps so don't think I thrive on whatever that aspect is...
This is why I shopped around so much for a sea school. There are definitely wide differences in how they operate, and how individuals teach. The NCO type is not uncommon. Even within the same school different instructors can be totally different.
Without doubt this is what changed from me doing the course. I don't recall being directly instructed on it. There just was never any panic or shouting or drama even when things didn't go to plan. When things go to pot now, that's still how I'm trying to behave. I also actually do far less actual "work" than I had expected - I rarely touch a winch, I don't need to go upfront for anchoring etc - because my crew are actually all competent - which means they understand how to execute my instructions.
Did you report that to anyone? This stuff dilutes the value of the qualifications for the rest of us. I would expect someone at the school cared, but certainly someone at RYA will. If instructors/examiners get away with this crap on shorebased courses that is why people then turn up on practical courses and are clueless which helps nobody. Its obviously not your job to invigilate the system - but I think we do all have an obligation to report wrongdoing.
I can't remember - can you sit the shore based exam without doing the training first? I imagine this problem gets worse as (i) chartering in the med without the paperwork has become near impossible (ii) there is more distance/on-line learning. You would expect though that someone at RYA is also looking at stats for pass rates and looking for suspicious numbers as well as centres with amazing performance that could be replicated elsewhere.
Its a problem with the system - because there is no formal pre-entry requirement. If the instructor is unable to cope if it turns out you are all idiots I'd expect they will have some robust screening process (a phone call to discuss? an hour on the boat before you go?). In my case, the school had another member of staff who would be doing maintenance/admin etc but had we turned out to be clueless would have come on board as competent help for a day or two. When I was shopping around for DS courses without having any yachting certificates it was clear that some places were interested and others were just looking to fill courses. If you just want a bit of paper to charter with, your temptation might be to select a different provider than if you actually want to learn something. Depending on the sort of sailing (where you source your crew from) dealing with people who overestimate their skills could be a vital skill for skippers.