Self Tacking Jibs. The YM Response??

[Martin&Rene]

In the latest YM, a reader asks whether his Hunter 323 will be slower, because it has a self-tacking jib. In my opinion, the response does not seem to be a full one, especially as it gives the impression that the comments are general comments.

So here is my view on the YM comments to the question

YM: Lack of sail area in light winds.
From what I have read, the Hunter 323 does seem to have conservative rig, which meant the boat was praised for its heavy weather performance, but that is to do with what the designer wanted rather than it being a consequence of the self- tacking jib configuration. For comparison whilst the Beneteau 35 has a sail area with its genoa of 54 sq.m., the similar Hanse 345, with its self-tacking jib, has a sail area of 55 sq.m. The small jib has been offset by a large main.

Modern theory has a view that for the best “horse power per area of sail” then the jib should be round about overlapping/non-overlapping and this can be seen in modern racing boats, the Americas cup cats and modern high performance dinghies like the 49ers.

YM: Lack of sail area when reaching
YM: No control of the sail shape unless a barber hauler is fitted.
Why the lack of sail area? As seen above, it comes back to the design of the yacht.
To get the most out of a genoa on a reach, you need easily adjustable genoa cars. Similarly, the ideal arrangement for a self-tacking jib does mean you need barber haulers, in my case I have a system so I can put a snatch block onto the jib sheet and pull it towards the toe rail. This not only increases leech tension, but also increases the sheeting angle, so we had a really good sail last week with the jib pulling well, with the apparent wind at 150-160 deg.

At bigger angles when the genoa or jib is blanketed, then you benefit from having a big main.

YM: Inability to move the sheeting position forward when reducing the size of the sail
Granted, but this is not an over major problem. You do not even think about reducing the area of the self-tacking jib, until you have 2 reefs in the big main and I have even sailed with 3 reefs in the main (3rd reef a must) and still with the full jib. Actually on my yacht, I can quickly switch to a higher sheeting position on my jib clew, so that I effectively change the sheeting angle if I put some rolls on the jib.

YM: Inability to boom out effectively when going downwind.
Funny, I do this regularly. I have a light weight jib stick of a length about 0.6 J (actually I think it is an old Fireball spinnaker pole). It is held up by the spinnaker pole uphaul. One of my barber hauler line is attached to end of the pole and this acts as a combined fore and aft guy. I then use the text book method of adding a lightweight extra jib sheet to jib, through the jib stick, back through my genoa turning blocks to a winch. This produces a stable configuration and by releasing the extra jib sheet I can either harden up or even gybe if needed.

 

[Neeves]

Lack of sail area?

I would have thought most self tacking jibs were a bit like the size of a No 4, or an 80% jib (i'm assuming the self tacker is on a track). I would think it most unusual if you cannot tell the difference in light winds, upto 15 knots, and in medium winds, say 10-15 knots in a bit of a chop. between an 80% self tacker and well trimmed 150% genoa.

Jonathan

 

[Kelpie]

I think the key thing is whether the boat was designed for it or not.
It suits modern rigs quite well, where the trend is for bigger mains and smaller jibs.
Don't think it would work very well on an older headsail driven design, e.g. a Co32.

My boat has been retrofitted with a ST, and it is a distinct compromise.

 

[Daydream believer]

I think the OP sums that up quite well
I would add that in heavier wind one does not need to furl the ST so its efficiency remains over a wider wind range.
When it is furled ( which is very rare) I find that the original sheeting angle is such that no adjustment of sheeting is needed.
I have not seen the YM article but I would suggest that to windward the slightly higher pointing angle does offset the loss of sail area in light winds to an extent & off the wind the larger main has its benefits

 

[bitbaltic]

This post spends a lot of time comparing the YM response to a question about self tackers (October page 32- the response being written by Peter Sanders, by the way) to the OP's own experience. I may have missed it help us understand where this is coming from it would be useful if we know what boat you have and how it is rigged.

 

[Daydream believer]

This post spends a lot of time comparing the YM response to a question about self tackers (October page 32- the response being written by Peter Sanders, by the way) to the OP's own experience. I may have missed it help us understand where this is coming from it would be useful if we know what boat you have and how it is rigged.

Being a Hanse sailor I would have thought you might have guessed !!!

But then so am I ( Both, Hanse & guessing that is )

 

[dunedin]

Actually I think the YM question response is very fair and balanced, and written by an experienced sailmaker (Peter Sanders), who probably has a broader and more balanced experience than most on here.

He makes a good point that a self tacking jib is a compromise trade-off of good and bad - making a good analogy of furling jibs that are also a compromise. And certainly a slight overlap seems to be good for aerodynamic efficiency at cruising yacht speeds (different at upwind foiling speeds or supersonic jets)
Personally I can't see the problem with tacking a 110% jib with good technique and good winches, but the YM response seems a fair one

 

[Tranona]

The big selling point of self tackers is simplicity and ease of use. However that comes with the well known drawbacks and limitations.

What the OP is describing is ways of either minimising or partially overcoming those drawbacks - at the expense of loss of simplicity and ease of operation.

Surely if one does not want those drawbacks then the sensible thing is to buy a boat that does not have a self tacker! Just what I did by opting for a boat with a 110% jib, although that still does not deal with all the short comings off the wind compared with a larger genoa/smaller main.

 

[Martin&Rene]

Responding to BitBaltic, as Daydream Believer had guessed (and probably knows) I sail a Hanse 341 which was designed specifically for a self tacking jib.
I think YM had coloured the response of P Sanders in their caption to the photo "Self tacking jibs, . . are a compromise between convenience and sail area" and that was the starting point of my not considering the reply a full response.

Where the YM is correct, is that my wife certainly appreciates not having to winch a jib in on the occasions that I am on the helm when we beat and tack up the Kyles of Bute, watching most of the other yachts motoring upwind.

 

[bitbaltic]

Being a Hanse sailor I would have thought you might have guessed !!!

But then so am I ( Both, Hanse & guessing that is )

I don't spend enough time on the Hanse forums (my turn to guess that the OP is also over there)

 

[bitbaltic]

Responding to BitBaltic, as Daydream Believer had guessed (and probably knows) I sail a Hanse 341 which was designed specifically for a self tacking jib.
I think YM had coloured the response of P Sanders in their caption to the photo "Self tacking jibs, . . are a compromise between convenience and sail area" and that was the starting point of my not considering the reply a full response.

Where the YM is correct, is that my wife certainly appreciates not having to winch a jib in on the occasions that I am on the helm when we beat and tack up the Kyles of Bute, watching most of the other yachts motoring upwind.

Well yep, my Hanse 301 is also designed for a self-tacking jib (or at least, its rig is). I rarely if ever use it. Not so much that there's anything inherently wrong with it but as Tranona says it basically trades off sail control for convenience. The boat came with a dacron jib cut for self-tacking use, when we bought a new suit of sails we improved the 'convenience' end of the scale by beefing up the sheet winches and the new headsail is a 110% genoa (small overlap). The sail is dead easy to handle as a result.

I occasionally put the headsail on the self-tacker in strong winds because it only sets OK on the ST when a fair bit is rolled away, not being cut for it. It is then useful beating like that as you say, but I'm rarely out in those sort of conditions.

Full disclosure ought to be that my sails are made by Peter Sanders, whose views you have taken issue with

 

[Iliade]

I think the key thing is whether the boat was designed for it or not.
It suits modern rigs quite well, where the trend is for bigger mains and smaller jibs.
Don't think it would work very well on an older headsail driven design, e.g. a Co32.

My boat has been retrofitted with a ST, and it is a distinct compromise.

S'funny, but my previous, but more modern, boat had a tiny main and a huge genoa, whereas my current, but older boat, had specified a huge main and a smaller genoa. I guess what goes around comes around...

Meanwhile, I still dream of a self-tacking foresail with a boom so that I can control the sail properly, sweep the unaware from the foredeck and easily tack up rivers. None of which is going to happen until I can lose the babystay.

 

[blxm]

As an owner of a Hanse 320 with a foresail in need of replacement the YM article was of real interest. From experience I can echo many of the comments here. The self tacker (on a rig designed for it), like a traditional setup, is a compromise. Close hauled it is extremely effective and the tight sheeting angles usually found work well. Single handed and short handed is as simple as it comes, up to a point. From about 60deg the sail starts to seriously loose shape (this is exacerbated by the poor condition of our sail) so we use a crude barber hauler negating the ST benefits. Broad reach and running we often roll away completely and run under main only and/or the cruising chute comes out. As the boat is mainsail driven a lot of this is not a problem. Reefing is all on the main a third reef is used before we roll the fore sail. Light airs are a weakness for the fore sail but having said that we are often surprised at our speed compared with other similar sized boats in light conditions to windward, off the wind its all up to the main in light airs.
Swings and roundabouts for the most part.

 

[Daydream believer]

. From about 60deg the sail starts to seriously loose shape (this is exacerbated by the poor condition of our sail) so we use a crude barber hauler negating the ST benefits. Broad reach and running we often roll away completely and run under main only and/or the cruising chute comes out. .

2 points here:-
1) you say that a barber hauler negates the benefits of the ST. Surely one of the benefit of the ST is that you do not have to alter sheets when tacking. But if you are at 60 degrees you are not tacking so you are not negating the self tacking issue. My down hauls are permanently rigged & if I am tacking they just hang loose. There is nothing to do with them. I only tighten them when reaching. If one has a genoa & goes from close hauled to reach one would move the car forward. With the ST one tightens the down haul instead. Just as simple - no extra work!! I do admit that I have 6 winches but that is because the extra 2 winches are used for the cruising chute anyway so I adjust the downhauls on a winch but they can be trimmed by hand. The ST sheet sits on one genoa winch
2) You can hardly blame the ST or any sail for that matter on having poor sails

 

[blxm]

2 points here:-
1) you say that a barber hauler negates the benefits of the ST. Surely one of the benefit of the ST is that you do not have to alter sheets when tacking. But if you are at 60 degrees you are not tacking so you are not negating the self tacking issue. My down hauls are permanently rigged & if I am tacking they just hang loose. There is nothing to do with them. I only tighten them when reaching. If one has a genoa & goes from close hauled to reach one would move the car forward. With the ST one tightens the down haul instead. Just as simple - no extra work!! I do admit that I have 6 winches but that is because the extra 2 winches are used for the cruising chute anyway so I adjust the downhauls on a winch but they can be trimmed by hand. The ST sheet sits on one genoa winch
2) You can hardly blame the ST or any sail for that matter on having poor sails

1) good point. Quite agree.
2) I am not entirely sure I was criticising the ST because I had poor sails. I was trying to say that from about 60deg sail shape starts to suffer with the ST arrangement, made worse in my case by poor condition sails. Hence by desire for a replacement.

 

[dgadee]

Where the YM is correct, is that my wife certainly appreciates not having to winch a jib in on the occasions that I am on the helm when we beat and tack up the Kyles of Bute, watching most of the other yachts motoring upwind.

Tacking becomes a pleasure with self tacking. I put in them in just for fun whether needed or not. Nothing like turning the wheel and off you go ...

 

[lw395]

The only boat I've sailed with a self tacking jib is an RS800 dinghy.
The downside I noticed was not being able to back the jib in low speed fiasco mode.
Otherwise, if the main can be made big enough for the performance you want, what's not to like?

 

[dunedin]

The only boat I've sailed with a self tacking jib is an RS800 dinghy.
The downside I noticed was not being able to back the jib in low speed fiasco mode.
Otherwise, if the main can be made big enough for the performance you want, what's not to like?

Per post #7 above, a dinghy which planes upwind and always tacks downwind under enormous asymmetric has different aerodynamic and practical needs from a displacement cruising yacht. Fun though (albeit fashions change fast in fast skiff market and perhaps now the RS800 is made to look "so dated" and simply SLOW in the rush to multihulls and foils

 

[lw395]

Per post #7 above, a dinghy which planes upwind and always tacks downwind under enormous asymmetric has different aerodynamic and practical needs from a displacement cruising yacht. Fun though (albeit fashions change fast in fast skiff market and perhaps now the RS800 is made to look "so dated" and simply SLOW in the rush to multihulls and foils

When you run aground beating out of a river, wanting to back the jib PDQ is much the same in an RS800 as it is in a contessa 32....
Apart from that, and needing a taller mast to get the same sail area, self tackers seem like a great idea.
On the 800, there is a multi-part tackle in the sheet, which gives really fine control over the sheeting, makes other dinghies seem crude.
The rush to multihulls mostly petered out 25 years ago.
The rush to foils probably only accounts for a couple of hundred boats in the UK?

 

[mobeydick]

I have owned a 34ft boat with rig for both self-tacker and overlapping Gennoa. With self-tacker on, she felt underpowered off the wind, great when hard on the wind. Downwind the large mainsail was subject to chafe on the spreaders. Heaving-to was 'tricky'.

With the Gennoa in place, she felt over-canvased going upwind, requiring an early reef. Downwind, the mainsail could be hauled in a bit, avoiding chafe and letting the foresail do the work. She was faster off the wind/down wind with the Gennoa, a bit faster hard on the wind (VMG) with the self-tacker.

MD