Seized Volvo Penta 2001

[ODL]

I'd like to present an unlikely twist on the usual woes of a seized engine -buying a boat with a seized engine!

The boat has been out of the water for two seasons and although the engine was drained it wasn't winterised when it was lifted.

With ample charge and linked batteries the starter engages to no affect. A spanner on the crank nut confirms that the single cylinder piston is seized up.

The broker, ever the optimist, was convinced 'it was left in gear,' to which I countered with, 'but the prop spins freely,' (I know this as she is still ashore and the gear was in neutral), to which, after a pause he assures me that everything will be ok.

Now, what makes this interesting is that I am under offer and have just completed the survey. My offer was subject to the engine running upon launch with no faults . During the viewing I was told that marina H&S policy prohibits motors running ashore. The broker did not try to start it at the viewing for this reason, and with this being my first boat purchase naively did not think to try to rock the crank.

Currently, the broker has arranged for Volvo certified engineers to take a look at the engine and I presume try to free it up.

Such that in my current position I have two queries,

1. Is the broker right? Will this engine be easily freed up, start with little fuss, and give good service? Or, will the seize/non-winterising have longer-lasting consequences?

2. The broker wants me to complete the sale before having the engine fixed. I am protected to some degree by the clause in my offer but wonder if I may expose myself after completion.

The broker proposes this sequence of actions,

1. Complete purchase
2. Receive title
3. Launch boat
4. Monies held in broker's client account used to service/repair engine (AT OWNER'S COST) such that it satisfies clause.
5. Engine runs, sail off towards sunset, etc..

Raising my concerns with the broker as to what happens if at point 4. the engine is deemed non-economic to repair, I hear two things. 1. It will be alright and 2. I am sure it won't come to that.

So what if it does? Is the clause in the sale agreement enough to protect me such that all monies are returned? Or at this stage would I have to consign myself to accepting the boat under different financial conditions?

I have approached this, my first boat purchase with all the due care and caution I could muster. Inevitably I have made several mistakes (not trying to turn the engine amongst others) and would do it differently again.

Thus, I put it to the floor and invite all comments and thoughts with respect to the two queries raised. Similarly, I welcome any suggestions as to my next step.

Kind Regards, ODL

 

[mattnj]

I'd like to present an unlikely twist on the usual woes of a seized engine -buying a boat with a seized engine!

The boat has been out of the water for two seasons and although the engine was drained it wasn't winterised when it was lifted.

With ample charge and linked batteries the starter engages to no affect. A spanner on the crank nut confirms that the single cylinder piston is seized up.

The broker, ever the optimist, was convinced 'it was left in gear,' to which I countered with, 'but the prop spins freely,' (I know this as she is still ashore and the gear was in neutral), to which, after a pause he assures me that everything will be ok.

Now, what makes this interesting is that I am under offer and have just completed the survey. My offer was subject to the engine running upon launch with no faults . During the viewing I was told that marina H&S policy prohibits motors running ashore. The broker did not try to start it at the viewing for this reason, and with this being my first boat purchase naively did not think to try to rock the crank.

Currently, the broker has arranged for Volvo certified engineers to take a look at the engine and I presume try to free it up.

Such that in my current position I have two queries,

1. Is the broker right? Will this engine be easily freed up, start with little fuss, and give good service? Or, will the seize/non-winterising have longer-lasting consequences?

2. The broker wants me to complete the sale before having the engine fixed. I am protected to some degree by the clause in my offer but wonder if I may expose myself after completion.

The broker proposes this sequence of actions,

1. Complete purchase
2. Receive title
3. Launch boat
4. Monies held in broker's client account used to service/repair engine (AT OWNER'S COST) such that it satisfies clause.
5. Engine runs, sail off towards sunset, etc..

Raising my concerns with the broker as to what happens if at point 4. the engine is deemed non-economic to repair, I hear two things. 1. It will be alright and 2. I am sure it won't come to that.

So what if it does? Is the clause in the sale agreement enough to protect me such that all monies are returned? Or at this stage would I have to consign myself to accepting the boat under different financial conditions?

I have approached this, my first boat purchase with all the due care and caution I could muster. Inevitably I have made several mistakes (not trying to turn the engine amongst others) and would do it differently again.

Thus, I put it to the floor and invite all comments and thoughts with respect to the two queries raised. Similarly, I welcome any suggestions as to my next step.

Kind Regards, ODL

You wont be the first or the last so dont beat yourself up, i bought ours having paid for the surveyor to run the engine in gear, he said all way fine, to later find the prop was totally sh*gg*d (pins worn) and the thing (boat under motor) was unusable, neither broker, seller, surveyor were interested at that point.

I would stand firm, and dont pay any more until you see it running. I would also think there is a decent chance that it will be ok, when free'd up, not really much that could happen to it assuming it was running ok before.

 

[MoodySabre]

If the engine is seized, and by dint of brute force they get it going, then how will you know what long term damage exists with the pistons and valves unless the engine is stripped?

My first sailing experiences 10 years ago were marred by an unreliable engine. When you feel that you need the engine due to conditions, current, ship dodging etc then it has to start on the button and keep running.

I would factor in at least the cost of a full strip and refurb and pitch my offer with that expense in mind. A replacement engine and all that goes with it will cost you £5k. If that doesn't work (you don't say what value the boat is) then I would walk away unless you are prepared and competent to do all the work yourself. I definitely wouldn't complete the purchase until you know where this is going.

 

[saltwater_gypsy]

Don't dismiss a seized gearbox. Even in neutral , the input bearing can seize up... it has happened to me!!!
On the other hand if water got into the cylinder and it all rusted up...........
It's easy to check the compression as a crude check on bore condition but my inclination would be ( as Moody Sabre suggests) to either negotiate a big reduction or have a retention of sufficient funds to have the engine checked over and repaired if necessary.
Hey...its a buyer's market at the moment so you can push pretty hard.

 

[Heckler]

I suspect that the piston is seized, typical of the storage period you describe. (My credentials, I have repaired diesels and engines for 40 odd years) I would also suspect corroded valve faces if they were left open in the cycle. The piston would probably be moveable with the removal of the head and I would be confident of MYSELF freeing the rings etc, however there will be corrosion marks on the liner and even if all was cleaned up (and I am confident that I would probably get the engine going) it would in all probability burn a bit of oil afterwards.
So, if you really really want it, be aware that you will end up with a more worn than normal engine and do you trust the brokers to do the job properly? OR negotiate a new engine or the price of.
Stu

 

[Tranona]

Remember your contract is with the owner, not the broker. He only represents the owner. If the boat was advertised without declaring the engine was seized, then you would expect it to be working. Good move to make the sale subject to seeing the engine running. Almost certainly you can just walk away and get your deposit back. On the other hand you can renegotiate the price based on a new engine - £5k. The owner will be aware that a boat with a seized engine is worth less - and probably difficult to sell at all.

The broker will probably try to give you a hard time, but tell him that the decision is with the owner, not him.

BTW did you have a survey on the rest of the boat? If so it might be worth asking the surveyor's advice, although an actual engine survey would need a specialist. Probably not worth spending the money. If you really want the boat, get the price down, have the work done and sell the old engine to recover some of the cost.

 

[pvb]

Walk away - there are loads of other boats to buy, you don't need this hassle.

 

[TQA]

Remember YOU have the upper hand providing you have not agreed to complete the sale and handed monies over.

There are a lot more boats for sale than there are buyers.

I would insist that the seller get the engine running and then negotiate a with held amount while you do a prolonged motoring test.

A Volvo is not a cheap engine to repair!

 

[ODL]

Oh dear!

I just wrote a reply in response to all of your comments. However, it has seemed to disappear.

My intention is to do the same in the morning. I am thank-full for all of the comments and suggestions received thus far.

Regards, ODL

 

[daveyw]

Probably just a rusty bore seizing the engine and so not a major problem. However,,,,,,,,,if it wasn't winterized properly it could be something termimal! I know a load of engines died last winter so beware. He who holds the cash has the power. Hang onto you money till you see the engine running.

 

[ODL]

Update on Weds. a.m.

So I just received a call from the broker.

He confirmed several things,

1. The engine is seized.
2. The owner used a volvo cert. engineer to determine this.
3. The head was not removed for further inspection.
4. The engineers worst case scenario was for a rebuild at the cost of £2950.

The broker has suggested to the owner that he do one of two things.

1. Go ahead with the repairs hoping that the job is not as bad as presumed.
2. Reduce sale price by £3500.

The broker has emphasised option two as the cleaner and quicker method.
This would also leave me with the responsibility of getting the engine running or rebuilding it.

I haven't been faced by a decision like this before and should the owner reduce the price what should be prime concerns/next move?

Regards, ODL

 

[Tranona]

£3500 will just about get you a new engine, but not the installation and any new ancilliaries you might need. Rebuilding a 2001 is probably not a good idea. It was not a particularly brilliant engine in the first place - and you will still end up with an obsolete engine.

Depending on the boat (what is it?) a Beta or Nanni 14 would be a much better bet and are around £3500 plus installation. You might find that you can do a DIY repair on the old Volvo or sell it for spares - probably get a net £4-500 for it.

You probably have to decide if you want the hassle, and this might be influenced by how good the rest of the boat is compared with alternatives.

Think if I really wanted the boat I would start at a £5k reduction and agree somewhere around £4k. When you come to sell having a relatively new modern engine will make it much more attractive than if it has an old Volvo.

 

[MoodySabre]

should the owner reduce the price what should be prime concerns/next move?

It's still a can of worms but getting better. For £3500 you could have someone take the engine out, strip it and completely recondition it and you could have an engine that will be just fine for many a year. BUT this is a lot of money to spend on an old engine and I would put that much towards a new one.

If you get the owner to do the work then you'll never be sure how thorough that was. If you really really want this particular boat then take £3500 off what you would offer. Speak to an engineer and then make a decision - spend an grand and have a runner that might last a few years or go for a new engine. A new engine will probably turn the other way so a new shaft and prop are usual and while you're there do the cutlass bearing and fit a dripless stern gland.

If you decide to walk away then don't worry about having spent the survey fee - the point of it was to make sure no bigger gremlins existed. It could look small beer in the long run.

That's my feeling. Good luck.

 

[mattnj]

haggle them nearer to £4000 then go for it, you will end up with the boat you wanted and a brand new engine, you should be able to get a new one, fitted for that, assuming you sell on/break the old 2001, you will be close anyway.

 

[ODL]

Thanks for the reply gents.

I had not really considered re-powering but understand it may actually be the best value that I could get out of the £3500.

I appreciate that spending the money on an old/obsolete engine might resolve my problems now but will probably seem short-sighted several years into ownership.

I seems I have a lot to think about. Will update with the owner's response.

 

[ODL]

Thanks Matt,

There seems to be a consensus of opinion for re-powering.

The yanmar 1gm10 is a popular choice for for this model (a Contessa 26) and I have noticed several used engines for sale. What is best approach to re-powering. Buy new with installation or used and DIY?

 

[MoodySabre]

Don't see the point in buying another used engine. If you can the right price reduction then get a new one.

 

[Tranona]

Re-powering a Contessa 26 is a marginal activity. There is a limit to the value of the boat, even with a new engine.

The choice will be a Yanmar 1GM or a Nanni/Beta 10. Very difficult to find used. I sold a 20 year old 1GM last year for £1200 and could have sold it 10 times over. A new one should be less than £3k, but I would go for the Beta or Nanni, depending on whether you like red or blue. A bit more money, but much more advanced - 2 cylinders, fresh water cooled, larger alternator. The Yanmar is a great little engine, but the design is over 30 years old and it does have some well known weak points. Both types are smaller than the Volvo so will fit your engine space. I replaced the Yanmar with a Nanni and it fits the same footprint but a bit wider.

You should also consider how long you intend to keep the boat. If it is a long time then probably worth the hassle. If just for a couple of years while you learn the ropes before you move on, then maybe better to buy a boat that is up and running.

 

[bendyone]

I would either replace with a new engine ( if you plan on keeping the boat for a number of years) or have it reconditioned yourself. Dont let the owner do this as it will be in his interest to have it done as cheaply as possible.

 

[ODL]

Tranona - Yes, understood that money invested in re-power may not be realised by future sale. So I appreciate that a long-term view must be taken.

My intention is to keep this boat at least 3/4 years whilst I finish my engineering degree in Southampton. Mostly channel sailing with RBI and offshore cruising in mind.

I have found a used 1GM10 just around the corner. It has come out of a fresh-water river boat. Offered at 1k w/out alternator or control panel. Similarly, age/service history unknown. However, it is running/starting but cannot be tested under load.

I am going to take a look and get some photos this afternoon. Any thoughts on what I should be taking a real close look at?