Seized piston rings I think, any liquid mixes to help free them

[cagey]

NfNorf thats the conclusion I've come to, today I've found no end of small businesses set up to help, back when I mothballed her there was only the Riley Register and they were always having internal spats.
Thanks for your in depth honest assessment
Keith

 

[Tranona]

As you have probably discovered there is a good network of riley specialists now they are worth a relative fortune. Way out of my price bracket now, which is why I have a modern Morgan! Most of the prewar experience driving with none of the maintenance aggro and cost.

Even a humble Riley 9hp saloon in good running order is in the £10-20k bracket. With a rotten body a complete car will fetch good money as a basis for a special.

Sure there will be somebody in the Riley network that specialises in the Wilson box. If not then try the Armstrong Siddeley Owners club as they were the other big users of pre selectors.

 

[TQA]

It was running when you laid it up and the engine turns over freely. RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO STRIP IT DOWN and ignore all advice that suggest you do so.

The rings are stuck in the piston grooves gummed up with old oil. Marinading in oil/diesel can do no harm and may get it going. A brief tow will almost certainly get it going. As I said in a previous post 15 mins running should complete the freeing process. As an absolutely last resort strip it But make sure new rings are available first.

As for the wonders of epicyclic gear trains and correct brake band adjustment contained in a Wilson pre select box my knowledge relates Daimler and Leyland buses. I suspect the internal layout to be the same but there is the scale issue. Find someone with the correct maintenance and adjustment manual and blag a copy.

 

[Normalfornorfolk]

Now does anyone know anything about Wilson preselector gearboxes.

I think the usual advice for amateur mechanics is to leave gearboxes well alone, but again the Riley Owners Club will put you straight far better than is likely here.
They will have a plethora of expetise, suggest you go there to find it.

 

[Normalfornorfolk]

It was running when you laid it up and the engine turns over freely. RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO STRIP IT DOWN and ignore all advice that suggest you do so.

The rings are stuck in the piston grooves gummed up with old oil. Marinading in oil/diesel can do no harm and may get it going. A brief tow will almost certainly get it going. As I said in a previous post 15 mins running should complete the freeing process. As an absolutely last resort strip it But make sure new rings are available first.

TQA, please explain the logic in resisting the temptation to strip it down. If there is insufficient/no compression there is a fundamental problem. Thus it needs dismantling - or have you found a way to release gummed in rings? I don't believe anyone else has. At least, not satisfactorily. But you know it's rings, not valves, do you? Please say how, I want to learn.
What differeence does it make if new rings are available or not? If the old ones are embedded in coke they won't work at all and the engine is useless so you have to diamantle it. If they are so gummed in they break when you try to remove them you're stuffed too if no replacements are available so no further forwards, nor backwards. However there are few things mechanical unavailable today and I suspect old Riley piston rings will be amongst them.
Talk to the Club and don't risk wrecking the engine by trying to make it work before it's ready.

 

[RichardS]

TQA, please explain the logic in resisting the temptation to strip it down. If there is insufficient/no compression there is a fundamental problem.

I agree.

The only "evidence" that we have that the rings are stuck in the grooves is the lack of compression and I very much doubt whether stuck rings would cause a total compression loss. The simple way to check would be to check the compression with a tester so we have a base figure although this sounds like zero. Then put a teaspoon of thick gear oil down the plug hole and test it again.

If the loss of compression is caused by the rings then, for a few seconds, the compression will be restored to at least 100 psi. If that was the case I would treat all the cylinders and try to start it since running the engine up to heat might free off the rings.

However, I suspect that using the oil will produce a small increase is compression, perhaps 10 or 20 psi, but that will probably not be enough to start the engine depending upon what the base reading was. In that case, if all the usual external checks have been completed (valve clearance and timing etc), then a head strip is the only way to go.

Richard

 

[Heckler]

I agree.

The only "evidence" that we have that the rings are stuck in the grooves is the lack of compression and I very much doubt whether stuck rings would cause a total compression loss. The simple way to check would be to check the compression with a tester so we have a base figure although this sounds like zero. Then put a teaspoon of thick gear oil down the plug hole and test it again.

If the loss of compression is caused by the rings then, for a few seconds, the compression will be restored to at least 100 psi. If that was the case I would treat all the cylinders and try to start it since running the engine up to heat might free off the rings.

However, I suspect that using the oil will produce a small increase is compression, perhaps 10 or 20 psi, but that will probably not be enough to start the engine depending upon what the base reading was. In that case, if all the usual external checks have been completed (valve clearance and timing etc), then a head strip is the only way to go.

Richard

He seems concerned about the price of the head gasket. For such a low compression engine I suspect he would get away with re using the old one with the addition of some Hylomar! In the good old days of A series BMC engines, re using the head gasket was the norm for cash strapped apprentice fitters!
If that fails then he can go down the route I went when I bought a double ended clinker built lifeboat conversion. It had a seized Meadows side valve engine, similar vintage to his Riley! Off with the head, lashings of freeing oil, block of wood to free the pistons, sand paper on the bore and soon got it free! The gasket was goosed so a piece of Walkerite and a ball pein hammer soon knocked one out! The inlet manifold was part of the alloy head, unfortunately the conversion used raw water cooling and this had eaten through the water jkt to the inlet manifold. I got some plastic padding gloop and filled the hole! It was hand start off a sprocket and chain arrangement.
She started almost immediately with a bit of blue smoke! Launched at Beaumaris and through the Swellies to Caernarfon! I was full of youthful self confidence in those days!
Stu

 

[Tranona]

The Riley engine is much more complicated than a side valve Meadows engine. It was way ahead of its time with hemispherical combustion chambers and angled valves operated by two camshafts high in the block. Externally looks like a modern DOHC engine. The basic design layout was used in a whole range of Riley derived engines including the very successful ERA racing cars. The 9hp is relatively low power, but like the bigger versions a sophisticated bit of kit and needs careful dismantling and putting back together properly before attempting to start it - not least because doing damage will seriously hurt its value.

 

[Heckler]

The Riley engine is much more complicated than a side valve Meadows engine. It was way ahead of its time with hemispherical combustion chambers and angled valves operated by two camshafts high in the block. Externally looks like a modern DOHC engine. The basic design layout was used in a whole range of Riley derived engines including the very successful ERA racing cars. The 9hp is relatively low power, but like the bigger versions a sophisticated bit of kit and needs careful dismantling and putting back together properly before attempting to start it - not least because doing damage will seriously hurt its value.

I stick with my original thoughts for such a low compression engine, the head gasket may be re useable with the addition of some modern sealants.
Stu

 

[Tranona]

I stick with my original thoughts for such a low compression engine, the head gasket may be re useable with the addition of some modern sealants.
Stu

Suspect you have not seen a Riley head gasket or head - looking at a contemporary picture now. While you might get a seal around the bores to check compression, don't think I would want to run it in anger without a new gasket. Standard CR is 7:1, racing engines commonly up to 14:1!

 

[Heckler]

Suspect you have not seen a Riley head gasket or head - looking at a contemporary picture now. While you might get a seal around the bores to check compression, don't think I would want to run it in anger without a new gasket. Standard CR is 7:1, racing engines commonly up to 14:1!

Oh dear me, here we go again. Entrenched position! Ive been repairing engines professionally since the age of 16, I am now 69, I am well aware of what can and cannot be done. You need to learn to accept that other people have lots of practical and professional knowledge too!
Stu

 

[TQA]

Re how do I know it is stuck rings and not a damaged valves. Well 55 years experience of b********* about with engines and a full City and Guilds Technological Certificate at level five helps.

In this case the engine has been stored for years and from the OP appears to have no compression on ANY cylinder. This is strongly indicative of stuck rings. The classic test for this is adding a SMALL quantity of oil to each cylinder giving it a brief spin without the plugs in to distribute the oil then performing a compression check. A substantial increase in pressure indicates that the rings are almost certainly the likely cause. No change says it is likely to be a valve issue. Valve issues on all cylinders on an engine that was running prior to storage is unlikely.

As I remember the Riley engine of that time is a fairly complex design with overhead valves twin camshafts and in racing trim a very high compression ration. I think I have seen a cutaway display of one but that was many years ago and in another life.

 

[nemodreams]

Wish I had one to play with and a garage in which to work on it !
Nice looking car ( googling ) - even as a standard saloon.

Do you have any pics ?

 

[Heckler]

Re how do I know it is stuck rings and not a damaged valves. Well 55 years experience of b********* about with engines and a full City and Guilds Technological Certificate at level five helps.

In this case the engine has been stored for years and from the OP appears to have no compression on ANY cylinder. This is strongly indicative of stuck rings. The classic test for this is adding a SMALL quantity of oil to each cylinder giving it a brief spin without the plugs in to distribute the oil then performing a compression check. A substantial increase in pressure indicates that the rings are almost certainly the likely cause. No change says it is likely to be a valve issue. Valve issues on all cylinders on an engine that was running prior to storage is unlikely.

As I remember the Riley engine of that time is a fairly complex design with overhead valves twin camshafts and in racing trim a very high compression ration. I think I have seen a cutaway display of one but that was many years ago and in another life.

What we recognise as a very high compression ratio nowadays isnt what that will have. The fuel in those days wasnt good enough. Anyay, T has already told us the std saloon was 7:1. The overhead cam business is irrelevant to the head gasket argument. If anything it makes it a simpler one, no push rod tunnels etc to be cut in it only one for the chain?
Stu

 

[Tranona]

Oh dear me, here we go again. Entrenched position! Ive been repairing engines professionally since the age of 16, I am now 69, I am well aware of what can and cannot be done. You need to learn to accept that other people have lots of practical and professional knowledge too!
Stu

You related your experience to a Meadows engine which is very different from a Riley - which I have some experience of working on. Not doubting your general knowledge and my position is not entrenched. Merely related my own direct relevant experience and I would not try to run that engine with an old head gasket - it is far too valuable. Anyway, your post said your repair was not a resounding success.

Remind me not to let you touch my Riley engine if ever I can afford to own one!

 

[Heckler]

You related your experience to a Meadows engine which is very different from a Riley - which I have some experience of working on. Not doubting your general knowledge and my position is not entrenched. Merely related my own direct relevant experience and I would not try to run that engine with an old head gasket - it is far too valuable. Anyway, your post said your repair was not a resounding success.

Remind me not to let you touch my Riley engine if ever I can afford to own one!

Where did I say it wasnt a resounding success?
And personal insults dont help your cause either.
Anyway, my anecdote was to illustrate the fact that in certain circumstances gaskets can be re used and they dont always have to bought new, they can be made using simple hand tools. Those old engines were very simple things even though an attempt has been made to muddy the waters by talking about double ohead cams and racing! The engine we are talking about was fitted to a humble saloon car, producing 9hp and having a compression ratio of 7:1. Nothing special in that!
The OP gave the impression that taking the head off wasnt an option because of the cost of a head gasket. My anecdote addressed that concern.
Whether he needs to strip the engine to its component parts to rectify the issues is another matter, but I have addressed the initial concern.
Stu

 

[RichardS]

Re how do I know it is stuck rings and not a damaged valves. Well 55 years experience of b********* about with engines and a full City and Guilds Technological Certificate at level five helps.

In this case the engine has been stored for years and from the OP appears to have no compression on ANY cylinder. This is strongly indicative of stuck rings. The classic test for this is adding a SMALL quantity of oil to each cylinder giving it a brief spin without the plugs in to distribute the oil then performing a compression check. A substantial increase in pressure indicates that the rings are almost certainly the likely cause. No change says it is likely to be a valve issue. Valve issues on all cylinders on an engine that was running prior to storage is unlikely.

As I remember the Riley engine of that time is a fairly complex design with overhead valves twin camshafts and in racing trim a very high compression ration. I think I have seen a cutaway display of one but that was many years ago and in another life.

I reckon you'll find that post #26 covered all that ..... and more

Richard

 

[Tranona]

What we recognise as a very high compression ratio nowadays isnt what that will have. The fuel in those days wasnt good enough. Anyay, T has already told us the std saloon was 7:1. The overhead cam business is irrelevant to the head gasket argument. If anything it makes it a simpler one, no push rod tunnels etc to be cut in it only one for the chain?
Stu

I am afraid that is all incorrect. The engine does have push rods - 4 either side. Two camshafts high in the block. This enables hemispherical combustion chambers (as I said earlier) without OHC. (Anybody with experience of Nuffield -MG etc OHC engines of the period like my Wolseley Hornet will know how difficult it was to make OHC work) The two camshafts are driven by a huge gear set at the front of the block and the valves are operated by push rods. Rocker boxes either side on top of the head. So the head face looks like a bit of Swiss cheese with coolant holes, oil feeds and pushrod holes. Very different from a simple flat head engine.

I have in front of me (as I said earlier) a cutaway of the engine plus a contemporary article (c1936 - the engine was first produced in 1928/9) on stripping and rebuilding the engine. Plus, in my youth I helped rebuild a 1500cc (12hp) version of the same basic design which raced quite successfully until it put a rod through the side.

So please, in this instance recognise that I probably know far more about this subject than you do!

 

[Tranona]

Where did I say it wasnt a resounding success?
And personal insults dont help your cause either.
Stu

Post 27 is a good account of bodging!

I am not insulting you or anybody else. As one plain speaking person to another - you can do whatever you like with your own engines.

In this case I am suggesting you are giving bad advice to somebody who has a very valuable engine that needs treating properly if he wants to keep it running in the future. As I said earlier, attitudes were different when Riley 9s could be had for next to nothing and there were loads rotting away in scrap yards you could get bits from.

Suggest you Google Riley cars for sale and see what they go for. Then you might reconsider how you would treat the engine. Also plenty of sources to help you understand the complexity of the engines for their time.

 

[Heckler]

I am afraid that is all incorrect. The engine does have push rods - 4 either side. Two camshafts high in the block. This enables hemispherical combustion chambers (as I said earlier) without OHC. (Anybody with experience of Nuffield -MG etc OHC engines of the period like my Wolseley Hornet will know how difficult it was to make OHC work) The two camshafts are driven by a huge gear set at the front of the block and the valves are operated by push rods. Rocker boxes either side on top of the head. So the head face looks like a bit of Swiss cheese with coolant holes, oil feeds and pushrod holes. Very different from a simple flat head engine.

I have in front of me (as I said earlier) a cutaway of the engine plus a contemporary article (c1936 - the engine was first produced in 1928/9) on stripping and rebuilding the engine. Plus, in my youth I helped rebuild a 1500cc (12hp) version of the same basic design which raced quite successfully until it put a rod through the side.

So please, in this instance recognise that I probably know far more about this subject than you do!

And you need to recognise that people can make a head gasket using simple tools or re use ones using modern jointing compounds which was the point I was making because of one of the original concerns of the OP
An apology for your personal insult wouldnt go amiss either.
Stu