Securing anchor in roller without a drop nose pin

[Refueler]

I've never used a snubber through laziness mainly but I think I should.

I can appreciate its use with chain for some boats where the protection of deck / post is a concern or as some don't like the grating sound of chain on roller ... but chain by virtue of its own weight has greater resistance to straightening out than rope - giving it less snatch to the boat. Watch boats at anchor ... those with rope snatching and jerking ... the ones with chain generally sitting quieter with less jerks.

Its not a fact open for argument - its a real observation and also personally experienced.

 

[Refueler]

Of the 2 scenarios imagined - for the chain to leap of the roller at anchor the anchorage would need to be very frisky and I would suggest forgetting solutions (to the chain jumping off the roller) and move to somewhere a bit more placid.

The options to secure the anchor on passage must be numerous. I would not use a pin to discourage the anchor from leaping off the roller as that implies drilling a hole though the shank (never do that) or the anchor may not jump of the roller but will constantly wobble of the bow roller .....and wear the bow roller.

The simplest answer is, as has been suggested, lash it down. Personally we use a short strop with a chain hook such that the anchor is hard against the roller - this stops it wobbling and in the event the windlass clutch loosens - stops the whole lot deploying in a 4m Depth when under motor (and being pulled up short) or in over 100m and having a struggle to get it all back in the locker. Our short strop with chain hook, is secured to a strong point, between windlass and bow roller. We use the same short strop as back up to the snubbers (bridle) to ensure the tension is not misdirected to the windlass, were the snubber(s) to fail.

To provide better answers in stead of guessing we need to see a decent picture of Webcraft's bow (as it is better to use devices already there - like horn cleats) and possibly Webcraft can clarify what his question really is.

Jonathan

I am not being argumentative .. just interested in a few points you make ...

"for the chain to leap of the roller at anchor the anchorage would need to be very frisky" ... agree that generally a chain would stay on the roller - but many stemhead fittings are an afterthought for anchoring ... and then you do run risk of it happening even in not so bad conditions. Lot of Baltic based boats actually forego decent anchor handling up fwd .. because of their prevalence for bow to moorings .. the roller often being a silly affair fitted into the bow plank. But that's another matter.


"implies drilling a hole though the shank " .... as you say - never do that ... but in most cases that would not be needed. Simple addition of extension to side plates can put the pin above the shank. But as I mentioned earlier - I used a pin for a while - then it fouled and I was there fighting to get it out ... not something you want when you need to drop it in a hurry.

"The simplest answer is, as has been suggested, lash it down". That is the best answer of all ... can be cut .. does not rely on any mechanical item ... is secure .... its a direct chain / anchor to roller matter .... quick and simple.

All three boats I have had on swinging moorings / anchored - I have trusted lashing the chain down to prevent jump ... but not so tight to be a problem. Even when using strops on swinging moorings - same lashing so rope strops stay in place.

Much better than having that nice Gelcoat or Wood surface scarred by errant chain / rope !

 

[Neeves]

Interesting comment you make about Baltic boats - many I have seen don't have bow rollers at all, but stern rollers and a windlass in the transom. It brings a whole new meaning to anchoring.

What is needed (world wide) is a whole new appreciation that anchor does not need to be 'off the bow', it could be, as in the Baltic, off the stern (with shore lines), or in Patagonia shore lines, or a Med moor - or a combination.

Most people take the easy option, drill through the sides of the bow roller (and the shank) and stick a pin in. Makes me shiver. Your suggesting of adding side plates is too complicated for most.

The best option, or cheapest, is a decent bit of rope and lash it down.

As I said - if Webcraft provided a picture of his bow, and bow roller, and clarified the question we could actually be useful to him .

Jonathan

 

[webcraft]

Just to be sure :

Are you talking about when anchored ... you say secure the CHAIN .... or to secure the anchor when stowed in the roller ?

When anchored. The anchor usually goes in the anchor locker on passage.

And yes, I use a snubber... but if it fails or the chain hook falls off?

The roller cheeks are not very high on either boat. I use a lashing on our mooring, was just wondering if there was a quicker option for overnight mooring or anchoring. Just belt and braces.

As usual, a wealth of interesting comments.

- W

 

[Refueler]

When anchored. The anchor usually goes in the anchor locker on passage.

And yes, I use a snubber... but if it fails or the chain hook falls off?

The roller cheeks are not very high on either boat. I use a lashing on our mooring, was just wondering if there was a quicker option for overnight mooring or anchoring. Just belt and braces.

As usual, a wealth of interesting comments.

- W

My own personal view after having a pin jam .... I prefer the light line lashing ... just a single turn is enough and can be easily cut if needed. No need to raise side cheeks or add anything ...

 

[zoidberg]

The roller cheeks are not very high on either boat. I use a lashing on our mooring, was just wondering if there was a quicker option for overnight mooring or anchoring. Just belt and braces.

On a Rival34 I 'assisted' on some time ago, we had a similar concern. There are plenty of places with enough fetch to get 'frisky' enough. There were holes in the cheeks of the bow roller, likely intended for a pin, but at inappropriate heights. I fitted a pair of small dome-head bolts with suitable eye-nuts, with the 'eyes' facing out. I then reeved several passes of cord through ONE eye-nut and through a small s/s snaplink - with a sleeve of antichafe material slipped over this short strop - such that the snaplink clipped neatly to the other eye-nut, bent over the chain.

Cheap and chearful. That worked for some years.

Sorry, no pics - the boat is now hundeds of miles away.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

.
Both my yachts lack sensibly placed holes in the bow roller to take a drop nose pin to stop the chain jumping out of the roller in wild conditions. I usually just use a bit of rope if I think conditions warrant it, but was wondering if anyone had a better solution?

-W

Drill 10mm hole in right place. You might get some corrosion but it wont rot away as galvanising can cope with some gaps. Done this on both my Bruce and my Supreme. I am not sure why Jonathon thinks a carefully drilled small fairly central round hole would noticeably weaken a large flange. Under load the tension will be taken by the top of the flange and compression by the bottom with centre almost neutral. Some reduction in stiffness for side loads but the anchor will just twist to realign


I used to have rope to rail but that did not stop point of anchor digging into the bows

 

[Laminar Flow]

On rollers and pins.
Our boat came with a short anchor sprit and a roller. The roller had no SS flanges to keep the chain on and the roller, though quite large in diametre was quite shallow. At anchor or while hauling, the chain would regularly jump off and there was absolutely no way you could leave the anchor on the roller at sea. I stowed it therefore with it's fluke in the V of the sprit and tied off the shank with a strop. That worked,sort of, except that the anchor marred the SS sprit and the CQR with it's hinged shank has a hunger for flesh. The roller I "re-machined" in situ, when frustration overtook me on a cruise, using a hand rasp to make it much deeper in general and to cut a groove for the upright link. This solved the problem with the chain jumping off during setting and retrieving. We use a snubber. I can still hear the chain shifting on the sea bed, but it is much more sotto voce - I do not need the trumpets to raise me from the dead at anchor, the gentle dropping of a pin is quite sufficient, thank you.

Which brings us to neatly the pin question. Dropping is the operative word here; we had one fall out at sea and by the time I figured out what the strange noise coming from the bow was, the chain and anchor were already in full rush and I was not about to stick my hands in it. I watched and prayed that the rope tail at the bitter end would hold and save our new anchor&chain. It did - 8mm braid is apparently tough stuff. The truly amazing part though, was how quickly a mature male with a dodgy back can haul in 50m of 8mm chain and a 16kg anchor by hand and on a bouncing foredeck. I had never used a pin to hold the anchor on any of my previous boats before and over some 60 000 miles I never had a problem tying them off with a short strop.

Last note on snubbers. The correct attachment point for a snubber on a boat with a bowsprit it at the lower bobstay attachment. This is without doubt one of the strongest points on the boat and avoids having the rode/chain chafe on the bobstay. If you need more elasticity and a longer snubber run it through a block. Occasionally one sees twin anchors at or near the end of a "supposedly" super strong bowsprit to avoid this problem. This is technological nonsense, as in this case any actual load is on the rig, not to mention the significant impact on performance from the large increase in pitching moment.

 

[Refueler]

deleted

 

[NormanS]

A genuine Bruce anchor (and possibly other makes) is made with a hole, primarily for attaching a tripping line, which is perfect for a locking pin, provided that the sides for the bow roller assembly are sufficiently high. So no need to drill a hole in the anchor.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

A genuine Bruce anchor (and possibly other makes) is made with a hole, primarily for attaching a tripping line, which is perfect for a locking pin, provided that the sides for the bow roller assembly are sufficiently high. So no need to drill a hole in the anchor.

I doubt the the sides would ever be that high on most boats and certainly not on Webbies, and hole would probably be in wrong fore and aft postion if for a tripping line.

My manson supreme has lots of slots and holes so really no reason to fear an additional one in the right place for a pin. Possible corrosion seems the only downside but after 2 years seen no evidence of that

 

[Laminar Flow]

I doubt the the sides would ever be that high on most boats and certainly not on Webbies, and hole would probably be in wrong fore and aft postion if for a tripping line.

My manson supreme has lots of slots and holes so really no reason to fear an additional one in the right place for a pin. Possible corrosion seems the only downside but after 2 years seen no evidence of that

Our new Kobra has a hole in the "right place", hence my, in retrospect, misguided idea of using a pin to secure the hook. If drilled through the structurally "inert" centre of the shaft I doubt a (small) hole would have any measurable effect on strength.

 

[NormanS]

I doubt the the sides would ever be that high on most boats and certainly not on Webbies, and hole would probably be in wrong fore and aft postion if for a tripping line.

My manson supreme has lots of slots and holes so really no reason to fear an additional one in the right place for a pin. Possible corrosion seems the only downside but after 2 years seen no evidence of that

I have no knowledge about Webcraft's boat, but the arrangement which I described works perfectly on mine. I do have a substantial bow roller(s) fabrication.

 

[webcraft]

A genuine Bruce anchor (and possibly other makes) is made with a hole, primarily for attaching a tripping line, which is perfect for a locking pin, provided that the sides for the bow roller assembly are sufficiently high. So no need to drill a hole in the anchor.

Good to hear a plus point for the Bruce...

- W

 

[Neeves]

Most anchor shanks have 3 holes intentionally incorporated into the design. There is one at the crown on the upper side, or outside, nearest the toe, of the shank presumably for a tandem anchor assembly (for the rear anchor) or for a tripping line. There is commonly one at the 'top' of the shank, presumably to attach a tripping line, or buoy, and another on the bottom or underside of the shank presumably, again, for use in a tandem anchor arrangement (for the leading anchor). I cannot think of an anchor without holes, Spade ?, in the shank - it seems sensible to use what is there. Spade have a hole in the heel of the fluke. Tandem anchors don't actually work very well, if at all - and if the holes are missing I would not lose any sleep. Similar not many attach tripping lines nor buoys - if the holes are missing - it might be no bad thing. If any are there - use them. Its quite difficult to drill a hole in high tensile steel - on your bow - it is also unnecessary

Zoidbergs solution is simple and has merit if you can feed the strop through one of the holes. This will result in your lashing the anchor 'down' to the bow roller. But you would achieve the same result just lashing across the shank, tightly. The alternative is to lash from the shackle hole, or shackle and tension back against the roller - but this needs an independent strong point 'aft', say a horn cleat in the middle of the foredeck.

Many anchor shanks are designed to meet Proof Load testing, Supreme, Delta, Spade, Knox, Rocna, Excel and the amount of steel. thickness, length, tensile strength is designed to meet the test. If you drill a hole in the shank you are compromising - in a small way the design and having spent a considerable amount of money on the anchor - drilling a hole to secure same (when a bit of rope will do) seems perverse. I appreciate the hole might be small, but small is an ill defined size - and how can you define a size for a 10kg anchor and a 50 kg anchor - simpler to simply - don't recommend.

But owners know what they are doing (and recall when the manufacturers of Rocna knew what they were doing) and it is their responsibility. But I would certainly not do it on a Kobra nor Spade. As a simple matter to avoid confusion or any encouragement - I would not do it (at all) - you don't need to, see above.


On snubbers and bow roller locations on bowsprits - I agree totally with Laminar Flow, post 28. Our snubber is attached at the bobstay strong point on each hull (not the strongest point on our cat (originally) but we added an extra patch of 750 gram glass and a 10mm thick backing plate for the pad eye). We use a LFR at the hook (bridle plate) and then run back to the transom (in the extreme the snubber can be 30m long and if all deployed - only 10m is actually forward of the bow). All detailed in the July issue of YM.

W: Bruce, Delta and CQR anchors a re fine - they must be - the CQR has given stalwart use for 90 years and the Bruce and Delta for 30 years - but there are now better anchors. If you compare the old with the new then the old are pretty average. If you have nothing with which to compare - they do a job as prove by their longevity. If push came to shove and nothing else was available...........

An old Ford Cortina did, does, a job, but there are better options now........if push came to shove (and you could still find one) it will get you from A to B......

Jonathan

 

[Sandro]

A bit OT, not particularly for anchors, but a general pin's drawback, as Refueler experienced: if heavyly overloaded it can bend, bulging between the two side plates and become impossible to withdraw.

 

[Refueler]

A bit OT, not particularly for anchors, but a general pin's drawback, as Refueler experienced: if heavyly overloaded it can bend, bulging between the two side plates and become impossible to withdraw.

My pin was not through chain or anchor but over top ... but when the chain fouled under it - the pin was jammed. I had to get a set of Molegrips to remove it .... even then because where you are working - was very difficult.

 

[jdc]

I've never even contemplated drilling a hole through the anchor, but with all the anchors I've used as the bower over the years - CQR, Bruce (genuine article never let me down and I regard it with great affection) , Delta and now Rocna) all have had a hole pretty much in an ideal position for a pin to pass through. Having bent and/or lost overboard several of the silly little pins with droop-noses I now just use a 12mm galvanised bolt and nut. Galvanised because a) they're cheap and b) unlike stainless steel they neither jam nor just undo by themselves having been left hand-tight.

Another matter entirely is whether one is essential: I try not to anchor where it'll be lively enough that I'd need a pin to keep the rode in the roller, but I do leave the boat on its mooring with the pennant over an identical roller on the other side and that I very definitely do secure onto the roller with a pin 12mm bolt.

As for the cheek pieces being too small, not so, at least on my boat. It's yet another scale-dependent factor in the perennial anchoring debate - just as beetles can't be the size of elephants, bigger boats aren't just scaled up versions of smaller (or, equally valid, small boats aren't just shrunk big ones). So no one technique fits all.

 

[Bristolfashion]

I have a pin, but it doesn't line up with any useful hole /slot. Whilst disturbance of the galvanising would be a source of corrosion, I have wondered if the electrical connection of the steel anchor to the stainless stem via the pin could be a significant part of the problem. I then started to wonder if drilling the hole big enough to take a glued in acetal or similar sleeve and thus provide isolation might improve things. When one look at such an arrangement on other boats, the rusting does seem to radiate outward from the hole and contact with the pin. Any thoughts?

 

[Bristolfashion]

My standard anchor securing is chain to deck via strong point - stops forward motion, soft shackle stem to rear of anchor - stops backwards motion and another soft shackle, stem to slot to stop it moving upwards.

Additional rope lashing as conditions require.