Second hand boat market

[DWT]

I am not looking to sell or buy at the moment, but I just wondered how values are standing up in this economic climate. What prompted this query is two Broom Europeans (both older versions of my boat) which have been for sale for some months at T&K. It looks like one has been sold now, but the price on the other has just been reduced to £40k.

That looks like a bargain to me, but I was passing the boat the other day and heard someone who was viewing it rather grandly proclaim that the owner was asking too much and that it was "worth £35k tops". I resisted the temptation to tell him he was talking nonsense, but as it has been hanging around for months perhaps he was right and I am completely out of touch with values.

From the pictures on the boat sale websites it looks pretty tidy inside and it is reasonably well equipped so I would have thought it would have been snapped up at the price it is on for. I can only assume that either there are problems with the boat, or the market is far more depressed that I had realised.

Any views or insights?

 

[oldgit]

I am not looking to sell or buy at the moment, but I just wondered how values are standing up in this economic climate. What prompted this query is two Broom Europeans (both older versions of my boat) which have been for sale for some months at T&K. It looks like one has been sold now, but the price on the other has just been reduced to £40k.

That looks like a bargain to me, but I was passing the boat the other day and heard someone who was viewing it rather grandly proclaim that the owner was asking too much and that it was "worth £35k tops". I resisted the temptation to tell him he was talking nonsense, but as it has been hanging around for months perhaps he was right and I am completely out of touch with values.

From the pictures on the boat sale websites it looks pretty tidy inside and it is reasonably well equipped so I would have thought it would have been snapped up at the price it is on for. I can only assume that either there are problems with the boat, or the market is far more depressed that I had realised.

Any views or insights?

European was sold recently down here at auction for 25K.It had been lying for about 2 years before being sent to auction ,presumeably to get rid of it.
It looked very tidy from the outside.

 

[Chris_d]

You are right the current market is dire and £35K doesn't sound unusual, so most people are choosing not to sell at all. Problem with old Brooms is they are starting to look like very old boats, they used to be fairly bullet proof on residuals but now just look like a lot trouble so new buyers are very wary. With much newer stuff (relatively) like Princess 35's slipping into the 45-50K price range as well you really have to be a Broom fan to want one.

 

[oldgit]

Not a good time to sell.
You have to be very lucky with a buyer coming along at the exactly right moment and not having gone through the market with fine tooth comb and taking full advantage of it.
Bought my boat with 50 hours on the engines from Essex Boatyards very much in the ball park we are talking about here
Chum has just bought a 2004 Fairline Phantom 46 with 400 hours for less than £150K.Mind you it did need a new set of covers if thet makes anybody feel better.

 

[No Regrets]

You are right the current market is dire and £35K doesn't sound unusual, so most people are choosing not to sell at all. Problem with old Brooms is they are starting to look like very old boats, they used to be fairly bullet proof on residuals but now just look like a lot trouble so new buyers are very wary. With much newer stuff (relatively) like Princess 35's slipping into the 45-50K price range as well you really have to be a Broom fan to want one.

No Regrets had one fault (split injector pipe - £70) in three years, and had only one osmotic blister after three years in the water.

Fifty Shades is ten years younger, and has plenty of blisters (looks like a dalek underneath) and the Volvo water pump replacement alone cost as much as three years servicing on the little Perkins.

A well maintained old boat can cost a lot less to look after than a lighter-built more complex younger one!!

Every boat is different though. Every single one...

 

[oldgit]

Most older boats especially Brooms* will be virtually at the bottom of their depreciation curve.They have always held a place in the market for a certain type of buyer who is looking for a stable solid boat to do a job regardless of fashion or transiant design trend,that will stand the test of time.
They tend to be bought by long term owners who have tried all the dubious delights of other types of boat and found them wanting.
Ps.* and Hardys.

 

[No Regrets]

Most older boats especially Brooms* will be virtually at the bottom of their depreciation curve.
Ps.* and Hardys.

LOL

No Regrets cost £30,000 when new, £30,000 in 1986, £30,000 in 2008 and £30,000 (est. judged from asking price) when resold last year.

No quite bottomed out yet...

 

[DWT]

Interesting. The one for sale was built in 1974 and I guess at that age it is starting to get pretty dated, especially the engines. I think if I was looking to change now I would not want to go that old, but at £35k (or £25k!) it would be possible to get a fair bit of upgrading done and have a decent boat at a reasonable total cost.

I have just read a piece in MBM about our attitude to osmosis compared to the approach in the US where they are much more relaxed about it. A boat that age is bound to have a fair few blisters and whilst this is not really a problem it may be another reason why people are steering clear.

 

[Chris_d]

LOL

No Regrets cost £30,000 when new, £30,000 in 1986, £30,000 in 2008 and £30,000 (est. judged from asking price) when resold last year.

No quite bottomed out yet...

I think as you say every boat is individual and the Broom 30 is good example of easy to sell reliable Broom, however DWT was refering to a 35 European and thinking of similar 37's etc.. of 70's vintage these have taken a bit of hit recently. They have a market but its increasingly a river only boat due to the ageing engines, mostly the old HT perkins which are now very long in the tooth and difficult to find bits for, yes I know you can get some guy in a shed in Norfolk to fabricate an intercooler for you, but the reality is most of these old stagers now need re-engining if they are ever going to be put to serious use again. And that is starting to hammer the values, anybody coming into the market for the first time isn't going to be keen on paying 45-50K for an old Broom with ancient combine harvester engines, when they can get a modern Volvo engined Princess or Sealine for the same money. All IMHO

 

[oldgit]

"anybody coming into the market for the first time isn't going to be keen on paying 45-50K for an old Broom with ancient combine harvester engine,when they can get a modern Volvo engined Princess or Sealine for the same money."

With a devils brew of instant or in some cases merely delayed hell on legs repair bill just waiting to get them off the water for months with an eye watering Barclays banker bonus bill following shortly behind.
Sooner or later the outdrives hanging on the back of most modern boats especially Sealines is going to bite you,betcha all those olde Brooms are still running on their original shafts and stern gear even after 40 + odd years

 

[Chris_d]

"anybody coming into the market for the first time isn't going to be keen on paying 45-50K for an old Broom with ancient combine harvester engine,when they can get a modern Volvo engined Princess or Sealine for the same money."

With a devils brew of instant or in some cases merely delayed hell on legs repair bill just waiting to get them off the water for months with an eye watering Barclays banker bonus bill following shortly behind.
Sooner or later the outdrives hanging on the back of most modern boats especially Sealines is going to bite you,betcha all those olde Brooms are still running on their original shafts and stern gear even after 40 + odd years

Not untrue but you can buy a fybridge Princess 35 with twin Volvo AD41's on shafts for less than 50K now. In MBM buy of the month was a 1998 Sealine 28 with twin KAD32's asking 49K, outdrive issues aside its what the market wants or prefers.

 

[oldgit]

Not untrue but you can buy a flybridge Princess 35 with twin Volvo AD41's on shafts for less than 50K now. In MBM buy of the month was a 1998 Sealine 28 with twin KAD32's asking 49K, outdrive issues aside its what the market wants or prefers.

Agreed but we are talking the Thames here,that 500hp fuel guzzling turbo charged Princess will need moving from the Solent or wherever,its arch hacked off and hinged plus bog tank fitted and BSS sorted before it goes anywhere.
As for that Sealine its a bit Hobbit Navy,endless hours weaving this way and that up the river in anything stronger than the lightest zephyr of breeze followed by sheer terror trying to go forward and stand upright when in lock.Prob best it crew live near Sellafield and have three hands.
A nice olde Broom 30 is just made for the job

 

[Whopper]

If you don't have to sell then its best to think of it in terms of a home purchase forgetting negative equity etc. Consider the cost to change (assuming its for a newer/bigger/more expensive boat) to the boat you want. In depressed market conditions both boats will change hands at subjectively "low" or "bargain" prices. But the cost to change is more or less the same.

Regarding boats costing 30k in 1980 1990 2000 and today. If you remember the MBY anniversary a while ago they posted the first published magazine (at least I think it was the first). I remember looking at Broom prices. Broom 9/70s and 10/70s were the exact same price back then as the asking prices today.

 

[No Regrets]

Hear Hear!

That Broom was just magic on the upper Thames. As much as I like the Scand, it's not a patch on it for ease of helming and refinement.

Good job it has other strengths....!!

 

[iCs]

At the risk of repeating an unfashionable truism: anything is worth precisely as much as someone will pay for it. There are two elements to this: the amount this mysterious someone will pay and the availability of this someone willing to pay something. It is the latter which is driving boat prices at present; there are simply very, very, few people buying boats, thus the market is somewhat asymmetric. Many owners would have sold if they were willing to take the 'market value' of their boats, but they cling on (paying marina fees, losing interest in their asset, and becoming even less motivated to achieve a good price by maintaining or adding value) with unrealistic expectations, when they might better face up to the way this distended market seems to be working, and take what they can get. Supply is similarly reduced, as those who should/would/could dispose realise this is not the time, but it is these people who probably would present a better boat for sale, because they maintain an interest.

As a buyer, this would be a great time to make offers at 50% of asking, because someone, eventually, will say 'yes'.

As a seller who needs to sell, it's pure misery, and the only thing you can do is the very most fabulous job of marketing, preparation, and presentation to a potential buyer. Sadly, the marketing and presentation elements are almost always executed by brokers, and (with a very few notable exceptions) I think we all have our opinions of them, and a boat properly prepared for sale is a rarity indeed...

Another factor concerns the potential buyer... Some boat buyers are over-capitalised or under-discerning, and even a few trades involving that kind of buyer can skew expectations.

 

[Deefor]

As a buyer, this would be a great time to make offers at 50% of asking, because someone, eventually, will say 'yes'.

50%? So my nearly new 2012 Viking 20 that's up for sale at £19950 that cost me £25k less than 12 months ago is only worth £10k?

Yes, mine's been on brokerage for only a few weeks but I'm down at the marina every weekend to wipe the hull and topsides, brush the carpets off where people have walked on them and clean the cockpit of muddy footprints. There's only so much a seller can do and the recent bad weather at weekends hasn't helped me.

 

[iCs]

Deefor,

I'll send you a PM, probably tomorrow when I have more time to organise some pithy thoughts.

I think we can safely say that no-one has offered to buy it for £19,950. Now, the Boatshop photos are dated May 2012, so it looks to any prospective purchaser as if that's when the boat was put up for sale; they'll immediately ask 'why hasn't it sold in so long?'. The presentation of the boat both there and on the Viking Owners' site could be VERY MUCH improved. I'll explain why and how in the PM. I'm never surprised when things remain unsold, if the marketing is poor.

Your boat is special... Anyone wanting a 20ft river cruiser can pick up a lovely, classic, rock-solid, Freeman, for £4K or £6K if they can't be bothered to do a deal. They know that a Viking is not built to anything like that standard and quality (nothing wrong with them per se, they're just built down to a cost not up to a standard - John Freeman didn't build either way, because no-one had built plastic boats before, in the numbers he did, but he built lovely boats which have lasted decades, and which, arguably, set the standard). That's just one argument, I could present several others relating to nearly-new small river cruisers (all of which reflect what is fundamentally a very specialist market). There's nothing wrong with buying a new Viking to keep it, but you perhaps didn't realise the significant depreciation in those boats if sold when young.

The acid test would be: I'm standing in front of you with £10,000 in cash (or however you like it). Do you exchange that for your boat?

You won't know until you're there...

 

[jecuk]

50%? So my nearly new 2012 Viking 20 that's up for sale at £19950 that cost me £25k less than 12 months ago is only worth £10k?

Sadly it is worth the intersection of what someone will pay and what you will sell it for. Depending on how motivated the buyer and seller are, that determines how close to either party's "value" the sale price gets. If you get offered 10k, you don't have to sell it there. But that doesn't mean the 10k is the wrong bid.

 

[EugeneR]

I was about to make an offer on a boat on Saturday, only to be told the buyer expected a minimum that was higher than the advertised price! And that with 9 almost identical boats in the same area.

More frustrating, it appears that the broker called the broker of option no 2, discussed strategy and suddenly the other is also no longer interested below asking price. Despite both originally telling me that the latter one's owner is keen and willing to negotiate.

 

[Whopper]

Double Post