Babylon
Well-Known Member
Girls - you've had a good run, but its time now to stop bashing one another with your handhags.
Second Hand Boat Buyers Conundrum - AWB vs MAB and Seaworthyness
- Thread starter steveej
- Start date
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Just as you have difficulty in reading. The reference to "wrong" is about the amount of wood in a Bavaria - not whether you like it or not. You just got your facts wrong.
Not once I have I commented on your likes and dislikes, only when you get your facts wrong in trying to support them.
Agree a boat like yours is likely to come up in his search as are many others that have not been mentioned so far. It is for him to decide whether it might suit or not.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Yes, headmaster
ashtead
Well-Known Member
I totally agree Babylon- what the OP needs is reasoned comments on risks associated with acquiring a MAB compared to a modern Bavaria or competitors and then make up his mind based on whether he wishes to be restoring or sailing? I am not quite certain when say a vessel becomes a MAB even ? Is this an age related thing or can an ex Sunsail boat be classed as a MAB for example on basis it might be in need of TLC ?
bitbaltic
Well-Known Member
Very good point. The notion (approached, if not directly expressed) in several previous comments that a c.2002 Bavaria is a boat needing little upgrading because it is an 'awb' whereas a c. 1990 French boat or Westerly will need loads of work because it is a 'mab' is going to be flawed. There are now quite a few tatty looking small AWBs around which will need a lot spending.
Fwiw I would guess a truly sail-away condition bav 34 is going to be more than the OPs budget anyway, but I haven't looked at the market.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
Following this thread with all its claims and counter claims about Bavarias, I did check that the OP might be lucky to find a Bav 31 for his budget, certainly not a Bav 34.
One comment I would add about early Bavarias is many had teak laid panels set in the deck and cockpit, but these are thin veneered plywood panels that were epoxied in place. I found this out from a Dutch Bavaria owner who had problems with the panels breaking down. His solution was to remove them and fill the recesses, finally painting the deck with non slip paint. A lot of time, but the result has stopped the problem for good.
I purchased a sound but tatty Westerly Fulmar, but would not recommend it for the OP. However I knew I was going to spend a lot of time and money improving it. So far this has now passed £20,000 without an engine replacement. My aim is to make it as close to new condition as possible. Many would ask why? I prefer the hull shape design of the Fulmar and being ¾ rigged makes it easy to singlehand. Also I will have an excellent boat that meets my sailing requirements, but at a final cost of one third of a new boat.
I could have bought a new 32ft yacht, but I just do not like their method of construction. The idea of an internal bonded structure with slots for all the bulkheads and furniture to drop into, makes commercial building sense, BUT it does allow these bits to move. Close to my berth are several sailing school boats (Jeanneau) and the maintenance team always complain the boats creak and flex in rough weather.
Interior design has improved with many family friendly features compared to older boats, but the improvement in construction has not equaled older designs. Sorry Tranona, but this is my opinion.
The stiffness of the hull requires the internal moulding to be bonded to the hull. If this fails after say a hard grounding, then the structural integrity of the hull has been compromised. At present there is no agreed method on how to detect any separation of the bonded internal moulding and the hull, and definitely no satisfactory method of repair. The current best answer should be to scrap the boat, but even this is not being done.
In general terms the OP does have plenty of choices for his budget, but only smaller AWB are within his budget compared to larger MAB. I wish him the best of luck in deciding what is best for his needs, allowing for the time and available money for changes to get it right for him. He should certainly choose the best equipped and maintained example of the class he prefers most. Any forum will always have differing views on that choice, but only he can decide. So try and help him by suggesting boats that are within his budget.
shaunksb
Well-Known Member
Well what a thread this is.
My advice to the op (remember him?) from the brief he gave would be to go for the tidiest /newest style of boat his budget will run to around 32ft. To be specific an early noughties Jeanneau or Dufour 32 at around £30k would be ideal for a small family with enough space, a shower, a fridge and a reasonably modern interior for all their needs.
The method of construction is largely irrelevant because in Britain we don't do sailing if there is a force 7 in the forecast anyway and then you will need the creature comforts and ambience of a more modern design while you wait it out in the marina.
At 32ft you're going to have enough displacement and speed for a very comfortable cross channel trip and enough space for you and the little blighters for a week or so on board.
Happy hunting.
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ashtead
Well-Known Member
At the prices indicated by the OP I'm afraid would not be looking at a Bav 34 but I'm sure he might pick up a smaller version. If interested in Bavs I would recommend a discussion with the guys at Clipper whose very knowledgable and I'm sure are best placed to find him something within budget and advise as to actual selling prices for say a Bav 32 which might be within the brief.
lw395
Well-Known Member
Maybe we need a third genre?
The Slightly Tired Ex-Race Boat?
A few interesting STERBs on yotworld.
Just search on your price limit, longest first and keep flicking through the pages until you spot boats that are feasible?
The Slightly Tired Ex-Race Boat?
A few interesting STERBs on yotworld.
Just search on your price limit, longest first and keep flicking through the pages until you spot boats that are feasible?
Iminei
Well-Known Member
Tranona
Well-Known Member
As I pointed out earlier 34's do come in if he ups his budget a bit. I know of an above average one (one owner from new) sold for less than £35k a couple of months ago and another asking £40 that will likely go for nearer 35. The concentration on this model comes about perhaps because it was on the OPs original list.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
No need to apologise you are entitled to your opinion.
However the method of construction you describe subsequently does not apply to the boats under discussion, neither Bavaria nor any other AWB from the 1990s/2000s. There is no evidence that I have seen that suggests that such boats fail to give good service or fall apart because of inferior construction. Just have a look at the thousands of charter boats that do far more mileage in a few years than most private boats do in a lifetime.
As to the latest designs and method of construction, such as the boat I now own, in my opinion it is far superior both to the earlier models of the same brand and light years ahead of boats built in the old cottage industry way.
As I argued on the discussion about the Cheeki Rafiki incident, it is a mistake to try and generalise from one specific case. The reality is that the vast majority of cruising boats are not misused in the that way and will never experience any structural issues. I appreciate the resistance to something that is new and different, but I am sure the coming years will show today's new boats will last just as well as any from the past - even if some of the loft living interiors lose favour with buyers long before the structure shows any sign of problems.
You admit to liking your boat and your objectives are much the same as mine and I seriously considered going down the same route as you, but the work, cost and ultimately ending up with an old boat eventually decided not for me at my time of life. So new boat it was.
Just as an aside, if you subtract the keel from the weight of your boat you get a hull and gear weight of 2580kgs. My, admittedly slightly larger boat is 3700kgs. Somewhat gives the lie to the idea that new style boats are "lightly built"!
I know I am not going to convert you as you (and many others) are clearly wedded to your likes, but just to show that rationally, and given the evidence available about durability they are based on very shaky ground.
Not sure if you have ever sailed a modern boat of this size, but you are welcome any time to sail mine. Think you will be surprised.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
If you do go for a Benetteau or Jeanneau then we chartered both types many times in sizes ranging from 32 feet to50 feet. The Jeanneaus were better upwind because they had a deeper keel - do check that is the same now. If you intend to sail in strong winds a heavier boat has a better motion. Bear in mind we had a not forecasted gale over Biscay with winds 35 knots gusting to 50 knots and a not forecasted secondary low in the English channel with 55 knot winds gusting 80 knots. So keep a close eye on the barometer and ensure you have a safe haven to run to wherever you are.
BurnitBlue
Well-Known Member
Another less known problem with bolt on cast-iron keels is that water can percolate into the structure where it can be porous then in winter the freezing water will split the keel where the fault(water) lies. I know personally of three. There is one cast-iron keel lying in the preveza boat yard, another reported on the MOA forum and I read of a French boat, (benny) but I cannot confirm that one. Not a lot of occurrence I admit but definitely a disadvantage if it happens to you. I am sure there are others not known generally.
jac
Well-Known Member
ONe point that I don't think has come out in the MAB v AWB bash is how long you intend to keep the boat and the age of your children.
We bought an AWB when our daughters were 5 and 7 and they were really keen to have a boat where they could share a cabin. Having shared one when we chartered we thought it would make sense.
We sold a few months ago and one of the drivers for selling was that we now don't want our daughters to share. They are still best of friends, will occasionally share a single bed at home but the forecabin got too much. They would sometimes needle each other and as they get older may well want somewhere where they can retreat and hide from their sibling
So our next boat must have 2 aft cabins and a decent forecabin for SWMBO.
SO my advice would be to look at what you might need now, but to also consider what might be suitable for children entering the teenage years and ensure that is suitable for both.
Given the time frame. best advice might be to go something new, clean, lightly used and with minimal upgrading required and know that you might need to sell in 5-6 years time to get a boat that will get you through your childrens' teens. Then boat cheaply, don't spend out on expensive upgrades and put aside the money to buy say a 36-38 in 5-6 years time.
We bought an AWB when our daughters were 5 and 7 and they were really keen to have a boat where they could share a cabin. Having shared one when we chartered we thought it would make sense.
We sold a few months ago and one of the drivers for selling was that we now don't want our daughters to share. They are still best of friends, will occasionally share a single bed at home but the forecabin got too much. They would sometimes needle each other and as they get older may well want somewhere where they can retreat and hide from their sibling
So our next boat must have 2 aft cabins and a decent forecabin for SWMBO.
SO my advice would be to look at what you might need now, but to also consider what might be suitable for children entering the teenage years and ensure that is suitable for both.
Given the time frame. best advice might be to go something new, clean, lightly used and with minimal upgrading required and know that you might need to sell in 5-6 years time to get a boat that will get you through your childrens' teens. Then boat cheaply, don't spend out on expensive upgrades and put aside the money to buy say a 36-38 in 5-6 years time.
Ludd
Well-Known Member
SNAP! Maybe these design features are indefensible .Don't mention the elephant in the room!
pvb
Well-Known Member
Ludd
Well-Known Member
Is your username perhaps apposite?
Yes. But my choice is MY choice. I knew nothing about yachts when I came to buy one--- but quite a lot about boats and bad weather at sea and what the sea is capable of, having fished Norwegian and Icelandic waters in winter. I couldn't come to terms with modern yachts, so bought a MAB. I have since sailed Beneteau s and other modern yachts. I have not changed my opinion.
shaunksb
Well-Known Member
