Second Hand Boat Buyers Conundrum - AWB vs MAB and Seaworthyness

[Heckler]

Hello,

I sold my Hurley 22 at the end of last season as it was just not big enough for family sailing. I didn't rush out to buy a new boat straight away as I was busy with a fastnet campaign and some med chartering this season so thought the boat wouldn't get much use, so my plan was to save up another year and buy either at the end of this season or at the start of next.

I want something suitable for coastal work but also want it to be seaworthy with the odd hop across the channel to france or the Channel islands. I want to also be able to take the kids with me aged 3 and 4 so the more stable at sea the better. Over the past 9 months of looking, my preferred choice has constantly changed from:

1. Mid eighties Sadler 29/34 £15k for the 29, £25k for 34
2. Mid eighties Beneteau First 305 on for £20k list price
3. Early 90's Beneteau First 310 on for £22k list price
4. Late 90's/early 00's Sun Odyssey 32/32.2 on for just under £30k
5. Late 90's/early 00's Bavaria 34 on for £35k

As you can see the budget has also been creeping up over time.

I have been reading lots of old threads on the AWB vs MAB relating to the fact that in some peoples eyes the large volume light displacement bav/jen/ben are not particularly seaworthy vessels. I understand all the arguments pros/cons of long keels vs fin keels, living accommodation vs seakindly motion at sea, but surely it is not as simple as that when you start to look at what you can get for your money.

I want the next boat to be a long term boat and don't want to keep changing all the time with the expense of refit and tweaking things you don't like. If I keep the Sadler for 10 years it will be over 40 years old! I am thinking it is too old and will not be worth anything when I come to sell it.

So what boat would you buy with a budget of £25 to 30k suitable for a family with young kids?

Buy the biggest AWB you can. Load of cobblers about them being unseaworthy. My Bene 381 has looked after us across the Irish Sea, Biscay and we are now in our 3rd year "darn sarf"
Just cruised from Gib to Almerimar, the seaworthiness or not is the last thing on my mind!
Stu

 

[bitbaltic]

I suppose a previous generation battled over auld wooden boats versus moulded advanced boats, or something like that, in the 1950/60s.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I suppose a previous generation battled over auld wooden boats versus moulded advanced boats, or something like that, in the 1950/60s.

LOL

 

[lw395]

Buy the biggest AWB you can. Load of cobblers about them being unseaworthy. My Bene 381 has looked after us across the Irish Sea, Biscay and we are now in our 3rd year "darn sarf"
Just cruised from Gib to Almerimar, the seaworthiness or not is the last thing on my mind!
Stu

Lot to be said for a bigger boat.
£30k is tight though for anything nice over 34ft, and it's not just the purchase price, the upgrades and repairs need to be budgeted for.
I'd not be confident buying e.g. a 38ft boat over 5 years old unless I was comfortably able to spend a few £k a year on catch-up maintenance and upgrades.

Personally I am thinking in terms of total spend over the ownership period for my next boat.
I reckon to keep it about 10 or 15 years and do all the upgrades at the beginning.

 

[steveej]

Westerly Discus. From post #48 :

Well I guess if it's good enough for Bob Shepton.......

 

[PaulRainbow]

Well I guess if it's good enough for Bob Shepton.......

Exactly ! You could take the kids to see Santa

 

[Daydream believer]

Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 35 fin keel: first reef to windward at 12 knots in any seaway but you can just hold it unreefed to 16-18 knots by feathering/flattening/easing main in flat water and steady wind.

With all due respect I think you are quoting a pretty lousy design selection.
I have just sailed along the Wallet in 20-23 kts of wind over tide for an hour( so it was very flat I admit) With full sail & was easily making 6Kts to windward in my 31 ft Hanse. Regularly hitting 6.5kts. I had just been scrubbed & was returning home. At no time did the boat hint of a broach & was being steered with Aeries wind vane.
Yesterday (Thurs 3 Aug so you can check the weather forecast) I went to Burnham & wind went over 40MPH for at least 1.5 hours & over 30 for 5 hours& whilst it was very wet it was certainly not "slamming".

 

[Iminei]

Buy the biggest AWB you can.

+1. With hot water & showers & loads of USB ports. Then the kids will still be sailing with you when it's time to think about downsizing.

 

[roblpm]

LOL

Well my father (rip) was bemoaning "plastic" boats well into the 70s, 80s and 90s! He spent more time varnishing than sailing though.........

 

[ashtead]

Many interesting and conflicting views here for the OP . As a former owner of a Bav34 2001 vintage which we sailed from new for some 14 years before moving to a larger new vessel I would certainly have a look at one although at upper end of budget and required replacements of say mainsail or rigging should Be factored in. The original sails were very poor Elvstrom but you would expect by now these would have been replaced to better quality. You might also discover rudder osmosis in all AWB of this age plus need to replace saildrive seals. In terms of sailing they easily out perform Hallberg or legends of same age size . I cannot say if any better quality than other AWB of era but you might also consider Dufour as alternative . As has been said they have fair level of wood compared to more modern offerings but it's all personal taste. Personally if looking for Bav would go for 3 cabin with 29hp engine and heating ,new headsail and chartplotter witH AIS and good condition cockpit tent to expand living area. Some dodgy ex charter ones do exist so best avoided . By way of comparison you can probably pick up an older Moody for like price and maybe even greater length by personally I would prefer newer vessel to any MAB unless you are really looking to spend your spare time on maintenance weekends
. Might assist to draw up list though of features on your likely boats to narrow choices . HappY hunting though.

 

[Tranona]

If i must.



Yes, i've read all about this, many times. Not sure of its relevance here.



My mention of money was well inside the OPs budget, for a boat that answers the question he asked "So what boat would you buy with a budget of £25 to 30k suitable for a family with young kids?



I do have a much bigger discretionary sum available, but it's exactly that, a discretionary sum. I chose not to spend it on a boat. If i wanted to spend more money i know exactly which boat i would buy. As it is, i'll leave my money where it is, it won't earn any money in a boat and a £100k boat won't do anything my current boat won't do. If that's OK with you ?

Get your facts right. I know talk about £100k is irrelevant - but it was you that raised it (in post#57), not me, followed by a diatribe about your likes and dislikes and your choice. Sometimes I wonder if you remember what you have written. Then as clearly demonstrated you got your facts wrong about the Bavarias under consideration without any supporting evidence even though you claim to have been aboard several.

Of course you can do whatever you want with your money, but it would be appreciated if you reciprocated and ceased making judgements about what I (or anybody else) does with their money.

 

[jonic]

I have a 17 year old Porsche and a 1986 Contest.

Very happy with them both. :encouragement:

 

[PaulRainbow]

Get your facts right. I know talk about £100k is irrelevant - but it was you that raised it (in post#57), not me, followed by a diatribe about your likes and dislikes and your choice. Sometimes I wonder if you remember what you have written. Then as clearly demonstrated you got your facts wrong about the Bavarias under consideration without any supporting evidence even though you claim to have been aboard several.

Of course you can do whatever you want with your money, but it would be appreciated if you reciprocated and ceased making judgements about what I (or anybody else) does with their money.

I didn't get any facts wrong, i said i don't like them. I said they were like cheap PVC conservatories, which they are, IMO. A few bits of wood here and there don't take away the plastic look of the rest of the boat or the cheap and nasty upholstery.

I'll stick with the old Westerly for now, if i decide to change it, i won't be buying a Bavaria, but if you're happy with yours, that's fine. People who buy Renaults tell themselves they are the best thing since sliced bread too, i'd imagine.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Seaworthiness is a function of the sailor at least as much as, and probably more than, the sailed. You or I (i.e. the typical amateur leisure sailor) will give up long before the boat. Some boats may feel more comfortable in a given sea state than others but the ability to ability to manage sail plans, etc. is often a lot easier on a more modern rig. For the sort of sailing you're talking about you shouldn't really expect to be out in more than F8 unless you really, really get things wrong. That F8, as you're probably aware, will feel like a hurricane but the real challenge will be getting the boat into shelter as you can't guarantee sea room to run in in much of the water around the UK.

It's totally a personal thing but I never understand this MAB vs AWB argument when boat buying. Surely you've £30K ish to spend so look at what's available and buy what takes your fancy as long as it will do the job you want (pretty much what you're doing to be fair but all of your boats will do the job so it's really which one gives you that little feeling inside). I'm afraid that, if you're going to keep the boat ten years then, unless you want a very tired and partly broken boat at the end of it, you're going to be throwing a decent amount of money at it at some stage. Everyone likes to pretend they won't be (don't blame them) but experience suggests otherwise.

Just my tuppen'orth...

 

[Daydream believer]

I didn't get any facts wrong, i said i don't like them. I said they were like cheap PVC conservatories, which they are, IMO. A few bits of wood here and there don't take away the plastic look of the rest of the boat or the cheap and nasty upholstery.

I'll stick with the old Westerly for now, if i decide to change it, i won't be buying a Bavaria, .

That really is a totally unfounded slur & if you are honest it would apply as much to Westerly as to any Bavaria. In fact more so, from the, admittedly few, of both makes I have been on.
If you actually got to sail a late model Bavaria you might be pleasantly ( Although considering how biased you are -"unpleasantly") surprised how much better they are than your Westerly

 

[PaulRainbow]

That really is a totally unfounded slur & if you are honest it would apply as much to Westerly as to any Bavaria. In fact more so, from the, admittedly few, of both makes I have been on.
If you actually got to sail a late model Bavaria you might be pleasantly ( Although considering how biased you are -"unpleasantly") surprised how much better they are than your Westerly

It isn't a slur, it's an opinion. It's how it looks to me, although i can't see how anyone can argue that Bavaria upholstery doesn't look cheap.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

I have a 17 year old Porsche and a 1986 Contest.

Very happy with them both. :encouragement:

Says it all! One man's meat is another man's poison. I have a 1983/4 Oyster Heritage and a 2013 Ford. Both suit my needs admirably! I have therefore a GCY and SUC ( great classic yacht and splendid utilitarian car) and am consequently an AOG (awkward old git) because I go with what I know is quality, not what is perceived to be so.��

 

[Babylon]

Don't worry about the AWB-vs-MAB debate.

For easy family coastal sailing, buy the youngest, best-built, least-sailed, largest, lowest-maintenance yacht you can afford and which will fit on your berth/mooring.

Unless - like me - your 'romance' is for older hull-forms, and a decade's enjoyment to be had in:
+ re-engining (including prop, shaft, seal and noise-insulation)
+ re-plumbing (total)
+ 12v re-wiring (partial)
+ stripping and refinishing a forest of solid and veneered surfaces
+ re-upholstering
+ bunk and folding cabin-table modifications
+ bespoke cockpit enclosure (a godsend of extra space in a 2/3 berth 27 footer)
+ topside grinding-out and re-spraying
+ coppercoating (optional)
+ clutch and winch upgrades

...and yet to be done:
+ fit a calorifier
+ complete the (partial) 12v re-wiring
+ hard-wire a 240v ring through the cabin
+ stanchion and chain-plate removal and leak-stopping
+ teak deck replacement (or more likely treadmaster)
+ coachroof spray-job

So, by 2022 I'll have owned my 1982 Vancouver 27 for fifteen years, she'll be better-specced than new, I'll have had a load of fun... and the Missus still won't come sailing!

 

[Tranona]

I didn't get any facts wrong, i said i don't like them. I said they were like cheap PVC conservatories, which they are, IMO. A few bits of wood here and there don't take away the plastic look of the rest of the boat or the cheap and nasty upholstery.

I'll stick with the old Westerly for now, if i decide to change it, i won't be buying a Bavaria, but if you're happy with yours, that's fine. People who buy Renaults tell themselves they are the best thing since sliced bread too, i'd imagine.

Why do you take it all so personally? You DO have your facts wrong about Bavarias as many others have pointed out, including posting a photo of a 34 exactly the same as the one on the OPs original list, which is typical of the brand up until around 2010 when the wood was change to lighter tones. And if you were observant you would see that on most models the upholstery is not cheap and nasty (unlike many MABs) nor is there much exposed plastic apart from the neat and well moulded deckhead surround. All the bulkheads are veneered ply as are the coachroof sides. You really do have poor powers of observation.

You even remarked that the photo was like your boat! So, it seems you are mistaken. You have not been sitting in a Bavaria that looks like a dentists waiting room of a conservatory. If you had, then you would be sitting in a boat that is very similar to yours.

There are indeed many AWBs that are less "woody", particularly in recent years as fashions have changed - maybe that is what you are thinking about in your rush to dismiss everything else that you do not like. However, remember you are in a minority - would guess there were more Bav 34s built in any one year than examples of yours in its long production run.

I don't care if you don't buy a Bavaria and what concern (or indeed relevance to this thread) is it of yours whether I like my boat or not. Are you implying that I am some form of inferior being? Perhaps I should feel honoured that you allow me to own what I want. And what on earth have Renault cars got to do with anything?

 

[GrahamM376]

If you actually got to sail a late model Bavaria you might be pleasantly ( Although considering how biased you are -"unpleasantly") surprised how much better they are than your Westerly

Have been following this thread with some amusement. I too prefer older boats and had the choice of mine (Moody 376 which needed updating) or a new mass produced Eurocrap model. Have seen some of the latest offerings and nothing would tempt me to change and that decision isn't based on finances, could buy one tomorrow if I wanted.

May surprise the forum dreamers (many of whom are unlikely to leave UK waters except for southeners having a quick dash across the Channel) that the majority of long distance sailors don't have Bavarias, they're mainly the choice for eastern Med holiday users and chartering.