Seamanship in general

[yellowberd]

My point is that the general standard of seamanship is slipping, It seems everyone wants a short cut nowadays.
Where have all the tradditional values and skills gone eh!

 

[oldharry]

What 'tradditional' values and skills?

Do you mean:
The ability to produce an edible meal out of a Ripingille No 3?

Knowing the formula for home made antifoul?

Having a job that allows you sufficient time to cruise without an engine?

Knowing how to seal a deck sufficiently so that it doesnt actually drip on the pillow?

Not having a paid crew living aboard?

Not being able to do everything by the Nelson tradiiton i.e.under sail?

Getting more intolerant of other peoples mistakes as you get older?

Or is it simply that modern materials and gadgets just dont 'feel' so seamanlike? If so thats cobblers. You can bet Nelson would have given his other arm to have a nice fat diesel in Victory, and the certainty GPS fixed position and navigation.

Dont forget its only 150 years ago that an overnight storm wrecked 350 commercial ships round our coasts, with huge loss of life. Thats not a 'value' I would want to maintain!

 

[Porthandbuoy]

First of all, welcome to the forum!

Yes, you may well be right. Many skills our grandfathers took for granted are being eroded thanks to marinas, reliable engines, synthetic ropes, dacron sails, GPS, echo-sounders, VHF radio, small boat radar, flares, 3-speed self-tailing winches, electric windlasses, mobile phones, chartplotters, electric bilge-pumps, I'm sure others will add to the list.

 

[Coomkeen]

Yes I agree to a certain extent.
But... I think it's common sense that is being eroded.

Sure Nelson would have had GPS and electronic charts. But he would also have used his eye(s) and ears and not treated what the electronics said as gospel truth.

Just 'cos it says on the chart that it's an anchorage, doesn't mean you can chuck the hook out with impunity. etc. etc.

So yes, common sense and sound judgement are becoming things of the past.

/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[oldharry]

<< common sense and sound judgement are becoming things of the past.>>

Disagree entirely. There are hundreds, if not thousands of us out there quietly getting on with managing our boats with a high degree of skill and competence.

But more and more people are joining the sport, sometimes by not very advisable routes. This means that there are an increasing number of folk out there who dont know what they are doing. And those are the ones who our attention is drawn to when they get it spectacularly wrong. Or when they bring a different attitude to the rest of us - like PWCers who think its funny to deliberately soak the crew of a passing yacht.

But that doesnt mean that the basic core of skills is being eroded - just that there are more people on the water still wearing L plates or who have an attitude problem!

The skills needed to manage a modern AWB have changed radically from the days of Hiscox, Griffiths and Ransom - all of whom would be pretty lost faced with the complexity of a modern AWB, and a crowded marina or harbour to negotiate. They never had to do it our way! Racundra, or Wanderer never had all the go fast gadgets and electronic wizardry modern boats are endowed with, so the skills they needed were very different to the skills we need nowadays.

So, as in all things in life, things are changing - some for better. some for worse.

 

[Coomkeen]

Yes maybe you're right.
They just notice more these days because there's more of them.

And of course, communications being so wide ranging and instant now, and slight stupidity gets broadcast far and wide.
Whereas you used to be able to make a hash of it in front of the clubhouse (assuming you belonged to a club) and only get ribbed by the members at the bar, now someone will video it and you'll be on YouTube within minutes. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Ron

 

[tillergirl]

What's this 'complexity of a modern AWB'?

 

[MBII]

Hi

Welcome to the forum. You have raised a subject that should elicit some heated exchanges.

My view is that the main problem is that people are not willing to put in the time to gain experience. Many people are not willing to put in a lot of time learning their trade these days and it is the same with boating.

With the easy availability of boats and sailing courses the timespan between thinking it might be nice to go boating and owning a boat can be a matter of weeks. People are too keen to drive their own boat rather than crew for others. On many trips you can get away with a lack of experience, but the British climate is such that the sea can change from a benign environment to a hostile one in a very short time and that is where the lack of seamanship and experience is exposed. A two week "dazed kipper" course is no substitute for a couple of seasons crewing with an old salt.

I was fortunate I started young, when I was about six in a lugsail clinker dinghy on the Broads and then later dinghy racing. When I was 18 I started Cruising, and later Ocean Racing, on other peoples boats for about severn years until I could afford a boat of my own. I therefore had a very good grounding in seamanship and life in general. I also read a lot books - Peter Seaton etc.

Gosh one can go on for ages about this!

Another point is that you never see youngsters talking to old salts. Again on the Broads I used to spend hours (whilst my parents went shopping) talking to an old sailmaker and I learned all about sail repairing, cordage, gaffs, topsails, reefing etc. etc. Today most parents would not allow that to happen as it would be considered "inappropriate".

So the answer to your question is yes because people will not put in the time to get enough experience before they go to sea. Sadly the sea is unforgiving to those who make a mistake and the penalty can be death to the skipper and crew and possibly to those who go to rescue them. More often it is likely to be annoyance to their fellow boaters and damage to their boats.

I am sorry I have waffled on a bit. Perhaps we have to let the modern sport mature. There have never been so many leisure boaters on the water and it really is no good harking back to the halcyon days of yore!

Those that survive will learn, those that don't will be a lesson to others and many will be frightened off and take up something else. We must just hope that the maturing process doesn't spoil the enjoyment for others.

Some thoughts for what they're worth. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

James

 

[Coomkeen]

[ QUOTE ]
What's this 'complexity of a modern AWB'?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.
But then I guess it's down to 'modern technology' being considered complex.
Doesn't worry me in the slightest, having spent the last 40 years working with computers /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If you have a good look at a traditional gaff/tops'l setup you could consider that complex.
Depends upon where you're coming from.

Ron

 

[Coomkeen]

[ QUOTE ]


people are not willing to put in the time to gain experience.



[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.
But there's two sides to it.
There's the 'cheque book boating' side where, as you have said, it's too easy to get out on the water on your own boat with 'qualifications'.

But the other side is just numbers.
If people come into sailing at a faster rate there will be a greater proportion of inexperienced people.
Takes time to make experience.

Ron

 

[tillergirl]

I don't have a problem with modern technology; gosh I even have a GPS, not that it does much more than Decca did! And I don't have a trouble with people 'taking short cuts' if indeed that's true - on which I remain to be convinced. I do think the 'car salesman' type of business that you see at Boat Shows rather does concentrate on the positives leaving newcomers to the sport with the impression that all you have to do is take the boat out with no regard for - well lets call it 'seamanship' for the sake of shorthand. I must confess I think the trend to regard the RNLI as some form of marine AA is a little worrying. I am delighted to contribute to a life saving voluntary organisation but not to a remedy for people who don't do their maintainance.

 

[kaysveistrup]

Gotta agree with a lot of the points made by so many, I also think it should be mandatory to have sat a formal, recognised qualification like a RYA Day skippers ticket (theory at least), before you can put to sea in charge of a boat. Just the same as with a car. BET that remark stirs up a hornets nest.

 

[Sneds]

Great post MBII
I hope you don't mind the owner/skipper of a "plastic stink pot" posting?
You, and others, have made some very valid points and I agree, there is no substitute for experience and thats one thing you can't buy!
Talking to others and inviting more experienced people on board can teach you a great deal. IMO the "Dazed Kipper" course is fantastic but if that were set as a minimum requirement, would those holding that "ticket" go on to further education or would they think "Thats it, I've got my licence!"
In my short "career" at sea (3rd boat, 5 years) I have done DS theory and PB11 obtaining an ICC on the way. Looking forward to my DS practical and on to Coastal Skipper, but these courses are so expensive!
On the practical side I have broken down, just offshore in a (not forecast) F7 and had to TX a panpan, learned about tidal streams and timing in the Bristol Channel and actually completed a few trouble free passages from Bristol to Cardiff and Watchet.
Seamanship has to be learnt and earned, and the more gadgets that can help safe and precise passage planing the better.
Don't we all have ABS, airbags and even GPS in our cars?
Happy boating to all /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Coomkeen]

Consider the hornet's nest well and truly stirred /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Roach1948]

No really sure how to contribute apart from 4 observations:

a) I agree with the educate, not regulate RYA policy. Look at France. We dont want to go down that route.
b) I do think that in general seaminship is quite good, but then again I am on the East Coast and if you screw up you go aground. I am also on a trad swinging mooring and I think you get a lot more "seamanship" in a weekend with such a set-up.
c) Not trying to prejudiced, but most of the poor seamanship on the Orwell has been mostly from fast power boats taking the inside line in-between moorings at dusk. All you need is a dinghy coming back from yacht to the hard and...... speed kills!
d) I believe best way to learn some confidence and skill is to single-hand a small yacht. Not blowing my own trumpet, but I find that many friends that have large yachts normally sail fully crewed and when onboard my titchy little thing I notice that they are not so au fait with a smaller boat. Some key examples: How much faster things happen, the extra motion and heel (and wetness), going forward to hank/lower sails, and ofcourse manouvering a long keel in confined spaces.

 

[oldharry]

Dont think Racundra even had winches - let alone 'coffee grinders' or whatever. Certainly our electronic gizmos make nav a darn site easier than trying to sight an undamped hand compass in a bumpy sea with a soggy paper chart disintegrating all over the cockpit a la Davies in Dulcibella. We have swapped one set of challenges for another - I am happy enough with my rig, but doubt very much if I could get much out of a gaff cutter yawl rig like old Dulcibella for quite a while! Nor would Davies make much of Raytheon's latest offering for several weeks, and would probably dump it over the side (a favourite occupation of his apparently) in favour of his trusty compass and soggy chart!

 

[Shuggy]

Why do we take people with (i) no profile, and (ii) 1 posting seriously? I sense a troll. A quick introductory "Hi, I'm futtocks [rhymes with...] and I have x, and enjoy y" would be more of an icebreaker than the meaningless blurb he/she posted.

Hmpphh.

 

[Porthandbuoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do we take people with (i) no profile, and (ii) 1 posting seriously? I sense a troll. A quick introductory "Hi, I'm futtocks [rhymes with...] and I have x, and enjoy y" would be more of an icebreaker than the meaningless blurb he/she posted.

Hmpphh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because new posters need encouragement.

 

[gary3029]

That is a exactly the attitude which is changing this forum for the worse. Their first post was not a sales pitch or a link to a dodgy site. It raised an issue which seasoned folk felt they had a point to put forward and I found it interesting to read....untill I got to your waffle. How many posts do you have to make before you can raise an intersting point?Knockdowns like yours do little to encourage debate

 

[Shuggy]

I agree that knockdowns do no good, and I have never put anyone down before on here, but I do think that some of the posts on the Classic forum have degenerated over the last few months. I do still have a suspicion that the orignal poster was taking the mickey and he/she hasn't come back yet to comment on subsequent posts or add anything useful. I have my hat on standby for eating if the post was genuine...

Sometimes I think people get drawn into debate because a mischevious poster has started something silly.

futtocks - if you're genuine, welcome. If you're just having a bit of a laugh, that's fine too - but not all that constructive. From my point of view, anyway.

And gary3029 - I didn't mean to offend you with my waffle!