Sealine Update (bit longish)

[tcm]

GBW2 = Gerrard Wainwright called me, main man at Sealine.

1. One way or another it seems the dates got mixd up. I am clear it was saturday, but somehow sunday started being checked at the sea school. So there is no issue of fibbing. This may partly be my fault - although i maintained "saturday" on the BB, and repeated that it was "yesterday" on the sunday, i mayalso have said "yesterday" to the guy on the phone from the sea school- on Monday. At which point the school flatly denied to GBW that it could have been them - cos they thort i was talking about Sunday. I can see it looks pretty bad for Sealine on the BB -cos here I have maintained Saturday. Worse, then GBW confirmed again here that it was the 13th (which he mistyped as 23rd...) so adding to it looking a bit like a flat denial.

2. I agreed to meet GBW at SBS. Actually i resisted a fair bit, cos i am crap at meetings and protested that really, this ain't that big a deal. I don't much need to rake thru which boat did what. His call was enough to show he takes the matter seriously. But more below.

3. the issue of wash is relevant. How close is close? There are no guidelines just "with consideration" which in saily boats is "not actually crunching the gelcoat" but they make almost no wash under sail whereas powerboats do, and go faster, and must be a bit further apart. But how far apart? Nobody knows. I have in the past suggested target 100m - but many say that's no good. At least when driving a car in the wet you have guideline in the highway code about how much stoping distance - why not similar thing with powerboats? ok, they'd get broken a bit, but at least you'd know what "miles too close" actually is. An issue for the RYA if ever there was one? Or the boat manufactuers whose products are used in crowded water, perhaps? Although, inthe adverts, it is always empty with minimal crew apart from however many wimmin are available within the ad budget.

4. GBW and i wil meet at SBS. He would be pleased to chat about his boats. I think he genuinely want to makem so they are classed higher than other makes. He is fed up of the rolling eyes and sighing. I think that in the past we on mbc have hacked away attem about this or that is no good. I have my own ideas about what could makem better, sexier, more attractive, more buyable. And also good things too. **If you have sealine experience and/or ideas, please PM me** Constructive things that would be an improvement, however small, and relevant to modern current boats, not an ancient heap 1978 thing and not things about which nobody can do anything like "I can't get all my stuff in an S23". List good things and bad things. PM me please, not on open forum ta. If you DO wang in and blam away, I will ask kim to re-parcel your post as a PM to me.

5. It would be a better forum if more people from the boating industry could come on here and not fear for their livelihood whenever their orgainsation was mentioned.

Idea?? : Perhaps a private forum for an individual manufacturer would be an idea - cos unlike MDL there is far more of a competiton issue here. I bet sealine wd welcome to speak to a percentage of their customers regading design - but not to those who may see it as an opprtuntiy to complain or get free stuff.

Regarding attitude to various comopanies here, the "facing the music" issue is valid - something that johnwatson of MDL understood, but most others don't. I hope they will move in a bit. It worked wonders for MDL at incredibly minmal cost. Partly, i spose it is an issue of bravery on the part of many/most manufacturers to discuss ideas good or bad from time to time. The switchover of opinion on these BB's to a positive tone for MDL was astonishing - yet it still remains that they charge lots of money for parking boats. It is a bit rough from time to time - but it's fairly disposable chat, not like publishing it in a magazine which is more official. It will always remain the fact that Sealine and others make boats that aren't always utterly perfect and bombproof on account of affordability, and also cos zooming over salty waves in a 2/3/4 bed plastic pointy house will always take its toll.

6. The "my apologies" thread has got a bit out of hand. I have no problem about it being chucked, or heftily edited now that the steam has gone out of it, and since some of it based on people (inlcuding me) getting dates wrong.

7. One thing I have learned here is "face the music as soon as possible". Otherwise it goes all vitriolic and festery. By contrast, as soon as one does face the music, then total respect results. We all know that real life isn't perfect, that we need to make a few quid, and that people cok things uop thru being a bit daft or careless. Most people hate anyone with authority (boat manufaaturers or politicians ) being permantly defensive as though wil lose face if they admit the slightest weakness, they hatem hiding away, or they hatem pretending that things ARE perfect when they could be better.



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[tripleace]

well said,

can this thread now be locked and this end the matter with the exeption of a joint message from TCM and Sealine on the findings.


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[KevB]

No Shouldn't be locked cause I still disagree with the wash problem.

I make less wash at 25knots than I do at 10 knots so OK make me slow down and make the matter worse?
Then suggest I slow down even more so as not to make any wash, say 6 knots. Then in anything other than a slight sea motor boats wallow about and are mostly not that controllable.
So what else? Maybe give yachts a wider berth say 100mtrs min?? How do I get anywhere in the Solent on even a half busy day.

Lets face it Motor boats and yachts don't mix very well but we are all on the same bit of water. I get peed off with the way they yachts have to zig zag all over the place mostly without much care as to what's around them, but I live with it and accept that's what Yachts do.
Conversely Motor boats make a lot of wash and move relatively fast, this gets on some yotties wick but unfortunately it's not in the control of the person steering it, the wash is the product of the boat not the guy steering it (see my points above as to why motor boats go fast).

The differences between Yachts and motor boats is made a personal issue by some people when really it's the fundamental attributes of the two different products in a confined area that cause the conflict.

If the issue was based around safety then yes something needs to be done, but accidents between the two are very very VERY rare if at all. So again it boils down to you have to accept they are different products doing the same thing differently.

It's not the individual controlling the product but the bi product of the product itself i.e. having to zig zag or creating wash.

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[lanason]

After all that - was the boat there or not ??

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[BarryH]

Umm think this agrgument 'bout wash has be raged over before. There's a lot of variables and the helmsman can have influence over what wash is kicked up. Different hull forms will create differnts amounts of wash for the same speed. Use of trim tabs outdrive trim will have an effect as will loading of people/kit/beer.
Yes your boat may be percieved to make less wash at speed from from your vantage point. From the helm I hope. But what you need to do is look at your wash once it has developed. Further behind the boat. The wash further behind the boat will have tuned from a short sharp chop to a longer bigger wave. To really appreciate it you have to look at it not from your helm, but from another boat to get another perspective.

Now this is all getting rather boring, tcm's made a statement 'bout meeting this other chap. Its for them to sort out. Not really for people who weren';t there to jump into the affray. Hopefuly the meeting will be amicable and all parties reach a mutually agreeable conclusion to the matter.

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[tcm]

fair enuf. there's wash.

You haven't mentioned any limit of exactly how close is "too close". Supposing you were skipering and a newbie was helming. How close to a yacht or a slower boat, perhasp speedboat but pootling not planning .... wd you say "jeez, bit too close!" I know it varies, so if you need, put limits of wave heights or wind. Currently there's no such quantitative definition. So, you can technicall missem by however much you would miss antyohyer car at 30 knots, probably a few yards or so. Not easy.

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[tcm]

i know there's lots of variables. In cars, those stopping distances are same for weak-kneed people, people with ABS cars, people with gorilla legs, and on all surfaces, regardless of what sort of tyres or ambient temperature. But no separtion distances quoted, anywhere. So, is the distance say 10 metres at 30 knots?

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[BarryH]

I reckon a lot will depend on experience of both helms. Maybe this grey area should be cleared up with phrase's like 'As far away as practical at a speed where your wake will not endanger safety etc etc.

Agreed there should be more of this in the training and syllabus of the RYA schemes. But as mentioned before, you can have all the rules /tests/licences under the sun, they won't stop the gorilla fisted throttle merchants.
This seems to be peculier to the waters of the solent/southampton. If the situation continues I can see a speed limit/exclusion zones being imposed as they have been in other areas. The one thing thats lacking here is common sense and judgement. Its the same old story. the selfishness of the few ruin it for the many. Might be time for the RYA to revamp the training to include a module on "commonsense at sea"

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[tcm]

Re: Common sense - definition

ah but. Common sense is easier to define against a background of rules and regs. I mean, common sense for some people wd mean "don't burn a load of fossil fuel for no good reason in a big plastic boat costing a load of loot" but which ain't much use here.

Planing-wise, some number wd surely be better than " 'As far away as practical at a speed where your wake will not endanger safety" cos i mean even within 10-15 metres, nobody got hurt, did they? How about "...will not *potentially* endanger saftey" ? which is a bit further away? Or ther again finish it with "..as far as reasonabkly practical" which brings it back in, cos someone cd say it wasn't practical, hence 10 yards....

not easy.



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[Observer]

I don't think you can be prescriptive. In open water with depth either side, I think your guide of 100m is a fair rule of thumb. In heavier seas, less may be enough. In light seas, if the yacht is sailing downwind, 100m could cause considerable concern.

Also, the rule of thumb doesn't work in (for example) the approach channel to Portsmouth where they may be lots of boats entering a funnel. Add varying sea conditions, opposing traffic, crossing traffic, traffic overtaking etc and there is no standard rule. I often pass within 10m of traffic entering or leaving the harbour. Sometimes I increase power in the bottleneck to maintain good steerage (and probably increase my wash) when there's loads of traffic and very confused sea state. Sorry if that increased wash causes discomfort to a nearby yacht but in my judgement it's unavoidable.

Over the last 10 years, I've found that I am more aware of wash and adequate separation than I was when I started. I do find that I take earlier action to avoid staying on a close separation course with a yacht (and find this anticipation is quite often acknowledged by a friendly wave). The emphasis is on "early". From the yachtsman's point of view, a mobo which holds its collision or close to collision course (perhaps because on autopilot or whatever) until it's (say) 200m away is very intimidating. The mobo skipper may be completely aware that he has to take avoiding action but the yacht skipper has to be thinking "what do I do if he doesn't change course" and, because he's slower, has to make his decision to take action himself much earlier. At the same time, he should expect to hold his course to allow mobo to take the required avoiding action. So he's caught in a dilemma.

This is all grandmother/eggs/suck stuff for you. Just adding my experience.

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[BarryH]

Re: Common sense - definition

Ah, well, in that case you've gotta throw the existing rule book outta the window and start agin then. Put in rules like No boat to precced through the water above 6 knots if there is another boat within half mile radius. Or such like. Which brings me back to the subject of zones/speed limits etc for areas of water like Southampton/solent.

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[KevB]

I would consider it bad manners if any boat passed me closer than 50mtrs in open water. In a congested area such as Southampton I would reduce the distance to about 30mtrs. If you have to pass any closer, then the speed should be reduced to a level at which you can comfortably steer. If you have to pass anyone at 10 mtrs or less I would suggest you slow down or even stop untill you can pass at a safer distance.

All the above is based around good manners and the distances are managable in area's such as the Solent without being impracticle.

I think the point is being missed though, it is by nature of the two different forms of boating that they conflict with each other in confined area's.

Here's stating the obvious....

Motor boats are relitively fast - yachts are relitively slow.
motor Boats can go whichever way they like generally regardless of wind and tide - Yachts harness the wind and tide and need to work with them.
Yachts glide through the water, gently parting it - motor boats bully the water pushing it aside.

My point is that even if good manners are applied on both sides, given the popularity of the Solent and the different characteristics of motor boats and yachts, the two forms of boating will impede on each other regardless. It's not human intervention that causes it but the fundermental differences of doing the same thing.

Anyway, some time in the future these problems will cease to exist as more and more Yotties, as they get older are turning to the dark side and buying motor boats...

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[Planty]

Only thing I have to add is the sailboat leaving the Hamble say, certainly straying toward the starboard side of the channel as one enters, whilst he and his crew are more engaged in hoisting their mainsail than steering, thus forcing one "too close for comfort" to a starboard pile, is just as intimidating, even when you are in a 43` mobo. This sort of "straying" seems to happen an awful lot in my experience and they don't seem to mind being an awful lot closer to me then, than I ever would want to be to them at any speed!

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[TwoStroke]

The simple answer is... know your wash. If in doubt ease off and give as wide a berth as possible.

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[BarryH]

Nah sorry not allowed. Thats common sense. Won't have any of that round here thankyou.

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[TwoStroke]

And there's me thinking I had it sused. Back to the drawing board. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

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[KevB]

Easing off and giving a wide berth still may not be enough to some, that is why I went into a little more detail than generics and the obvious..

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[KevB]

how about this for a new road safety campaign slogan on how not to kill a pedestrian.........


Watch your speed and don't knock one over.

God I'm a genius ;¬)

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thats true. Yotties are used to shaving layers of gelcoat off each other 'coz they all started in dinghy racing. I think its the wake issue more than the proximity issue that bugs them and yes a lot of them do fart around in the Hamble entrance pulling bits of string without any apparent effect

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[jimi]

Pennyworth from me! As a raggie I don't generally have an issue with wash except when
1) Someone (giggling inanely) uses me as a mark in slalom practice .. happens more often than you'd think.
2) Someone deliberately revvs up onto the plane beside me .. partic that big Sunseeker around Soton water
3) Someone trying to be kind slows down from the plane to displacement speed beside me
4) Anyone who needlessly comes too close (incident 2 years ago when between Needles & Poole someone passed within 6 foot of me whilst on the plane.)
5) Large displacement craft belting along at top speed .. more of a problem than planing craft IMHO.
6) They're draped in naked women and are going too fast .. highly inconsiderate



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