Sealine S24 v S23 or 25

[CX54WEK]

For whatever reasons, they are changing hands for £30k+ now.

Yes they are. We have noticed that the brokerage at our marina is being firmer with their prices and are getting them. A few years back they were selling for a few grand less then they are now and some of the examples they are selling for top money are not the best examples.

 

[Greg2]

Yes they are. We have noticed that the brokerage at our marina is being firmer with their prices and are getting them. A few years back they were selling for a few grand less then they are now and some of the examples they are selling for top money are not the best examples.

I think you are right Rachael. We have been a bit taken aback at what S23/S24 are asking and the S28, which as you know is an option for us. Puts me off buying a bit because as has been pointed out boats are inevitably a depreciating asset so paying high now will result in a loss over the longer term

 

[ari]

Not necessarily. Used boat values took a major hit 2009 - 2016 due to the global recession, since then they've been slowly recovering back toward normal. Unless we get another massive global recession (not impossible I grant you) then there's no reason to think they won't maintain the same sort of level as they used to (which is to go down in real terms as money devalues over time, but stay broadly static in pound notes).

An extreme example would be something like the 70s era Princess 37. A 70s Princess 37 with decent engines and in good nick is what, £35K? So probably about what it cost new.

The difference is that in the 70s, £35K would have bought you a nice house. Now it'll buy you a new top end VW Golf.

So compared to what else it'll buy, boats go down. Long term in actual cash, once they've become secondhand (so taken a hit from new to used), traditionally they've levelled out, with the recent big drop in secondhand values from 2009 on being the exception, rather then the rule (and something they're now starting to recover from).

 

[ari]

To muddy the waters a bit I noticed a Hardy Seawings following that link. Attractive price, comparative and with KAD32 https://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/Cruiser/hardy-seawings-254-elegance/205370

I rather like that, especially for the money.

 

[Greg2]

Not necessarily. Used boat values took a major hit 2009 - 2016 due to the global recession, since then they've been slowly recovering back toward normal. Unless we get another massive global recession (not impossible I grant you) then there's no reason to think they won't maintain the same sort of level as they used to (which is to go down in real terms as money devalues over time, but stay broadly static in pound notes).

An extreme example would be something like the 70s era Princess 37. A 70s Princess 37 with decent engines and in good nick is what, £35K? So probably about what it cost new.

The difference is that in the 70s, £35K would have bought you a nice house. Now it'll buy you a new top end VW Golf.

So compared to what else it'll buy, boats go down. Long term in actual cash, once they've become secondhand (so taken a hit from new to used), traditionally they've levelled out, with the recent big drop in secondhand values from 2009 on being the exception, rather then the rule (and something they're now starting to recover from).

Could possibly be the case I guess but time will tell. I do think that boats get to a certain age where they do depreciate in pound note terms and I am thinking that some will not recover to pre-2008 levels

 

[ari]

Possibly, but the Sealine S23 we're discussing is a pretty good example of this. New on launch in 2002 it was about £45K.

So at two years old you'd typically have knocked off the VAT at 17.5% as it was then and it's about £38,000. Add in a little new to used depreciation and it was probably circa early to mid £30K secondhand for a two year old example.

Today, now 16 years from new, it really isn't much different to that. Add the fact that the depreciation curve tends to be steepest when newest and then flatten out over time (because a two year old boat is twice as old as a one year old boat so a fundamental difference on the used market, whereas the difference between an 11 and a 12 year old boat is virtually immaterial, despite the age gap being the same) and I can't see why that's likely to change much.

Of course the big difference is that you can't take your £30K, add £15K to it and buy a brand new 23ft diesel cruiser, which is the point I'm making about the cash figure remaining broadly static once the new to secondhand drop has happened, but in real terms it's dropped quite a bit.

 

[Greg2]

Of course the big difference is that you can't take your £30K, add £15K to it and buy a brand new 23ft diesel cruiser, which is the point I'm making about the cash figure remaining broadly static once the new to secondhand drop has happened, but in real terms it's dropped quite a bit.

Very true and I think that is one of the primary reasons for prices being a bit firmer on this type of boat and not quite so much on larger boats.

 

[Scubadoo]

Possibly, but the Sealine S23 we're discussing is a pretty good example of this. New on launch in 2002 it was about £45K.

So at two years old you'd typically have knocked off the VAT at 17.5% as it was then and it's about £38,000. Add in a little new to used depreciation and it was probably circa early to mid £30K secondhand for a two year old example.

Today, now 16 years from new, it really isn't much different to that. Add the fact that the depreciation curve tends to be steepest when newest and then flatten out over time (because a two year old boat is twice as old as a one year old boat so a fundamental difference on the used market, whereas the difference between an 11 and a 12 year old boat is virtually immaterial, despite the age gap being the same) and I can't see why that's likely to change much.

Of course the big difference is that you can't take your £30K, add £15K to it and buy a brand new 23ft diesel cruiser, which is the point I'm making about the cash figure remaining broadly static once the new to secondhand drop has happened, but in real terms it's dropped quite a bit.

I think you will find it was more like £55k new with a diesel.

 

[Greg2]

I think you will find it was more like £55k new with a diesel.

According to a review in Motorboat Owner just shy of £58k when launched as the Bolero in ‘95 and £75k when badged as the S28 in ‘99

 

[ari]

I think you will find it was more like £55k new with a diesel.

Nope, £45K

 

[ari]

According to a review in Motorboat Owner just shy of £58k when launched as the Bolero in ‘95 and £75k when badged as the S28 in ‘99

Bolero/S28 was the next model up.

 

[[2068]]

Nope, £45K

My 2003 Brochure shows -
KAD32 S23 = £47,200 without options.

2007 Brochure:
D3-190 S25 = £60,674 !

 

[Bigplumbs]

All gone slightly off topic as these threads so often do

Dennis

 

[CX54WEK]

Nope, £45K

We have the original paperwork for ours and it was £58k new in 2003 with a fair few options added.

We bought it at 5 years old in 2008 for £38k.

It is now 15 years old and judging by the asking prices for them now would go on the market for around £32-33k.

 

[Greg2]

Bolero/S28 was the next model up.

My mistake

 

[ari]

My 2003 Brochure shows -
KAD32 S23 = £47,200 without options.

2007 Brochure:
D3-190 S25 = £60,674 !

It launched in 2002 at £45K (£45,??? - I can't remember it to the pound).

No doubt it was more expensive the following year.

The fact that it was £60K five years later rather proves my point - that's exactly why a 2002 boat for sale in 2007 at sub £40K would look good value, despite being not that far off its new price (bear in mind that for a cash purchase there may well have been discount off list too).

And today with an equivalent mid 20ft diesel boat at what, approaching £100,000?, at circa £30K that 2002 boat still looks good value.

It's the increase in boat prices that allows the secondhand ones to maintain their price in cash terms, although as I've said, what you can't do is take that cash, add a small amount and buy another new one.

 

[Bigplumbs]

All good info but I seem to remember asking about the difference between S24 and S23/S25 and if a difference of £10k was worth it. Not so much a lesson in boat pricing

Dennis

 

[ari]

My answer to that would be, yes if you can comfortably afford it for the exact reasons discussed - that unlike (normal) cars which depreciate to (effectively) zero, most of that extra £10K will remain in the boat and be returned to you when you sell it.

 

[[2068]]

All good info but I seem to remember asking about the difference between S24 and S23/S25 and if a difference of £10k was worth it. Not so much a lesson in boat pricing

I guess I'm always interested in why prices are the way that they are - it's part of "is the £10k difference worth it".

.

 

[beejay190]

All good info but I seem to remember asking about the difference between S24 and S23/S25 and if a difference of £10k was worth it. Not so much a lesson in boat pricing

Dennis

Not a lesson, just widening the subject a bit. Good to think outside the box Dennis.