Sea trials.

[volvopaul]

A good friend of mine is purchasing a boat of 220k stature, he has paid his deposit, as the boats already in the water the sea trial will be carried out first then if all is ok the boat will be lifted for survey shortly after.

Here is another brokers/dealers question.

He is buying from a well known dealer, its not a stock boat but is being brokered by the dealer, he is having to pay a separate skipper to take him on his sea trial, surely the dealer should be doing this as part of his side of selling the boat(and making his 8%).

The dealers excuses for not demonstrating the boat is on non insurance grounds???
The owner is not available to demonstate this either, however I see it that,

The owner/seller is paying the dealer to sell the boat, parts of that sale is to demonstate the boat to the buyer, so why should the buyer be paying for someone else to do this and why isnt the dealer insured to do this in the first place.

I have placed this post after reading the long thread on buying and its debate as to who is responsible for matters arising from a sale/purchase, and what do these brokers do for there money both to buyer and seller.

I certainly would walk away from any purchase if it be 10k or 200k if I had to pay to see its ok at sea.

Whats your views on this? has anyone else had to pay separate, I came across this a few months back when asked to accompany a buyer on a sea trial, I presumed as I knew the broker he would be driving the boat, but no a delivery skipper turned up, when i saw the cash handed over for an hours work, I was to say the least amazed.

No doubt im going to get some flack about all skippers costs/insurances etc and no doubt your quite right, im fully insured but its back to the agent/dealer/broker where this post arises!.

 

[oGaryo]

Not sure if this helps but here's an email I received from the Broker of the boat I am purchasing.. clearly a much smaller, less valuable boat so it's either a Broker not geared up for such events or there's a limit to the level of insurance maybe for the size and cost of vessel you're refering to:

"We do have business cover for such activities as sea trials. It would have to be weather permitting as the weather is nothing short of awful at the moment in terms of both wind and rain! The possibility exists and we have the facility to do so, but I do not think we will be able to make a decision until the day."

 

[mainshiptom]

I would tend to walk away and see how the broker react? ask for my deposit back and wait !

Tom

 

[Nick_H]

i'd say it's unusual, but in some ways no different to a yard who is brokering a boat charging you for a lift out for survey. I guess a skipper costs £25/hour, plus some travel costs, so shouldn't break the bank whoever pays. I'd probably ask for the cost to be refunded if I buy the boat, but I wouldn't walk away just on that basis.

 

[MapisM]

I'd probably ask for the cost to be refunded if I buy the boat, but I wouldn't walk away just on that basis.

+1

 

[phockit]

My simple view of this:
Sea trial is proving the boat works = owner/dealers responsibility
Survey is about the level of diligence the purchaser wants to go to = purchasers responsibility

When we bought our boat the broker/owner arranged a skipper to take us out on the sea trial. When we sold our boat I took the purchasers out but had the option of getting a pro at my cost (I think).

Paul

 

[miket]

reasonable compromise

Recently purchased our Broom 38 through Southampton Waters Yacht Brokerage at Shamrock Quay (very pleasant experience and no connection other than satisfied customer).
They too said that they would need to employ a qualified skipper to take the sea trial. They advised me that in the event that the sale did not proceed I would have to cover his cost, but not if the sale proceded to completion.
So essentially, if they get their commission they take it as a cost and if no commission no cost.
Seems realistic to me on boat 12 purchase.

 

[Nick_H]

My simple view of this:
Sea trial is proving the boat works = owner/dealers responsibility
Survey is about the level of diligence the purchaser wants to go to = purchasers responsibility

but you could equally argue:

Sea trial is to see if the boat's handling suits the purchaser = purchasers responsibility
Survey is to see if anything on the boat needs mending prior to sale = owners/dealers responsibility

 

[gjgm]

but you could equally argue:

Sea trial is to see if the boat's handling suits the purchaser = purchasers responsibility
Survey is to see if anything on the boat needs mending prior to sale = owners/dealers responsibility

Maybe I m wrong- and I guess a sea trial could be for any reason you (mutually?) agree- but I always thought a sea trial was limited to testing those mechanical aspects of a boat you cant test without being underway.
So I dont take a sea trail to be the equivalent of a dealer test drive in a car.
That said, I ve only bothered with one sea trial in the various boats I ve owned, and that was only bcz the broker seeemd keen to provide it.
I would say though that it is entirely for the buyers benefit, so I dont agree its the responsibility of the current owner/broker to pay for it. But then usually there is no cost other than someone's time.

 

[capsco]

A good friend of mine is purchasing a boat of 220k stature, he has paid his deposit, as the boats already in the water the sea trial will be carried out first then if all is ok the boat will be lifted for survey shortly after.

Here is another brokers/dealers question.

He is buying from a well known dealer, its not a stock boat but is being brokered by the dealer, he is having to pay a separate skipper to take him on his sea trial, surely the dealer should be doing this as part of his side of selling the boat(and making his 8%).

The dealers excuses for not demonstrating the boat is on non insurance grounds???
The owner is not available to demonstate this either, however I see it that,

The owner/seller is paying the dealer to sell the boat, parts of that sale is to demonstate the boat to the buyer, so why should the buyer be paying for someone else to do this and why isnt the dealer insured to do this in the first place.

I have placed this post after reading the long thread on buying and its debate as to who is responsible for matters arising from a sale/purchase, and what do these brokers do for there money both to buyer and seller.

I certainly would walk away from any purchase if it be 10k or 200k if I had to pay to see its ok at sea.

Whats your views on this? has anyone else had to pay separate, I came across this a few months back when asked to accompany a buyer on a sea trial, I presumed as I knew the broker he would be driving the boat, but no a delivery skipper turned up, when i saw the cash handed over for an hours work, I was to say the least amazed.

No doubt im going to get some flack about all skippers costs/insurances etc and no doubt your quite right, im fully insured but its back to the agent/dealer/broker where this post arises!.

Paul, I think you know the answer to this, It is entirely down to your friend to make the decision, he either complies with the conditions laid down by the vendor/broker, or he walks.

 

[volvopaul]

Peter.

Did you pay for a skipper when to tested out of Lymington?

Would you have paid ?

 

[capsco]

No & no

 

[Nick_H]

Maybe I m wrong- and I guess a sea trial could be for any reason you (mutually?) agree- but I always thought a sea trial was limited to testing those mechanical aspects of a boat you cant test without being underway.

It's certainly written that way in the standard sale contract that brokers seem to use, but i've always had it changed to allow for rejection if I don't like the handling, or some other aspect of its sea keeping.

My previous post though was a bit tongue in cheek, and only to suggest that you could argue it whichever way about who's responsibility it is to pay for sea trial and survey.

 

[gjgm]

It's certainly written that way in the standard sale contract that brokers seem to use, but i've always had it changed to allow for rejection if I don't like the handling, or some other aspect of its sea keeping.


In my part its also a case that I wasnt too sure I d get much support if I turned round after a sea trial and said, blimey-sorry, but I didnt realise that the handling on these boats is so totally cr_p, !!!

 

[rwarnett]

Sea Trail

There is a broker in Southampton that did that to me had to pay for a skipper for sea trial. Sea trial went ok but my engineer was not to keen. I did not go ahead with the purchase so cost me 1 surveys report 1 lift out 1 engineer and 1 skipper but did get deposit back from broker.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

each time I purchase I always change a dozen stuff of any contract, they did it to me when I sell so why should I not do it to others....
if a broker is not interested I say next, so far all have been interested to my request
I think actually they prefare that you ask for a change when doing the contract, then to stay complaining afterwards

 

[John100156]

Unless the boat is a steal at the price; I would not be happy to pay for a skipper. When I bought my T34, I paid my surveyor to protect my interests and as part of the survey, I had him undertake a sea trial.

The interest of the seller/Broker is to sell the boat, they should demonstrate it runs properly to the buyer, fit for purpose.

Just like test driving a car, nothing stops you taking a car mechanic with you and test driving the vehicle. Some garages only let the salesman drive the car, fine. You would not expect to pay for this.

A boat SHOULD be test driven on the water at the seller/brokers expense IMHO! 8% wow, this too seems very high indeed to me!

JC

 

[Tranona]

The interest of the seller/Broker is to sell the boat, they should demonstrate it runs properly to the buyer, fit for purpose.


JC

If you are buying from a private person then "fitness for purpose" does not come into it. You are buying the boat as it is and it is up to you to determine (at your cost) that it is what it says it is - including sea trials if you think that necessary. It has to be this way because once you accept it you have no comeback. Now it could be that the owner is happy to offer trials and could authorise the broker as his agent to arrange and pay for this, but he is under no obligation. A compromise could be that you pay and the owner reduces the price by that amount if you buy. He might do this if he thinks that a sea trial will turn you into a firm buyer. You can also make a sea trial one of the conditions just as a survey is, but again it is at your cost. You have to remember that the boat remains the seller's property until he receives the money, so he may not be willing to to risk his boat, so may ask you to employ a professional skipper and pay any insurance and other additional costs such as fuel.

It is of course different if you are buying from a dealer who owns the boat. Then you are covered by consumer law - but he is still under no obligation to offer a free sea trial, although he may be more willing than a private owner.

 

[bradtarga34]

Surely once you get to the stage where you are undertaking a sea trial then that would be the final stages of finalising a purchase. If a dealer is taking their commision of say 8%, on the value of this boat close to 20 k, then I would expect the blinkin' broker to pay, I would tell them to stick it up their jumper if they expected me to pay for a professional skipper, I would expect a reputable dealer to deal with this as part of their commision.

 

[volvopaul]

Your quite right brad I would feel the same too.

Im actually gobsmacked about the way the sea trial is dealt with especially who the dealer is, I can only say its one of the uk's 3.

I would have thought they would have better ways of dealing than this.