"Scuttlenet"

[PaulJ]

\"Scuttlenet\"

Well, from the responses so far it would seem that the majority (yes I admit it was a small sample) think it is not a bad idea but there are complications and they have reservations about it's "workability".
What say we give it a go and see if anybody uses it?

To begin with it will not be worth setting up a dedicated forum so I suggest we just use Scuttlebutt and prefix any postings with "Scuttlenet".
Until word gets round and there are lots of people listening, if anybody is setting off on a longish passage it would probably be best to announce that fact on this forum before you go (prefixed with "Scuttlenet"!) and then the rest of us will be reminded to listen in. Also state whether you will be on Marine or Amateur band. Then tell them back home to check on this forum and hopefully we will be able to post progress reports.

When you try to call in I guess a suitable call would be your Callsign followed by "calling Scuttlenet"......?

For the last couple of evenings I have twiddled the dial at 1800 and for about 10 mins after and I have found that a frequency of 14,337 Kc/s was completely quiet whilst there was plenty of activity on the rest of the band. So I suggest that we start with a frequency of 14,337 which is towards the top end of the Amateur 20 mtr band. Could anybody suggest a frequency for those on Marine band?

With such a trial, at least we will see what the problems are and if it would be worth pursuing the idea.

"Nothing ventured, nothing gained." /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Paul.

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\"

14,337? All you need now is someone at least 1000 miles and preferably 7000 miles away to talk to. I wonder if they've been reading this and the other thread? That's the problem, Paul.

 

[PaulJ]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\"

The idea is not to chat to people just down the coast but to provide a position reporting system for people on long passages. 20 mtrs seems to work well down to the Med and across the Atlantic, that is why I chose it.

If you have a better suggestion perhaps you would like to share it with us rather than sniping at what I hope could be a useful facility.

Paul

 

[Gunfleet]

You will be talking to yourself

Don't be pompous. I'm not sniping, I'm pointing out that your enthusiasm is running away with you. How are these people in the Med or Biscay supposed to know you are calling them? The people in Marinas will be using wifi or t'internet cafes, not ham. In any case you may not pass messages for third parties over the amateur service with a UK ham licence. The categories of information are strictly limited. Of course you can pass general info with a marine ssb ... but you do not appear to be engaging with this crucial piece of information.

Further, if you CQ on 14000+ none of us in Britain will be able to hear you and no-one in the Med will know to listen. If you do make contacts how will you differentiate the fact that you are calling yachtsmen rather than standard hams? 'CQ CQ maritime mobile only answer please?' Even if a MM ham chanced on you they wouldn't need your 'net' because there is already a UK MM ham held twice a day close to that frequency. There is however no equivalent in the maritime service. There is the gap. That is my point.

 

[PaulJ]

Re: You will be talking to yourself

Capabar I'm sorry but you seem to have missed the point of this. We will not be calling from this end or trying to talk to each other within UK waters. The idea is for people who are sailing a long way from civilization to be able to call and speak to somebody who has access to the forum so that they can then post an update on their position with a brief message to the effect that they are OK..... no more, no less.

We would not be calling CQ from either end, it is those at sea who will be doing the calling and at this end we will know to listen because it will only happen at the agreed time. If you read my posting I have suggested that a suitable initial call would include your callsign followed by "Calling Scuttlenet". I suggested 1800 UK time but if enough people want a different time they are quite at liberty to voice their preference and we can see what time suits the majority.

As for the legality of passing messages to a third party, I don't see any difference in principle between what I am suggesting and those who send e-mail to Sailmail who then forward it to "non-hams" through the internet. Obviously any commercial or business messages should not be sent but if we limit this to simple progress reports I don't think anybody could object. If it turns out that this scheme could only operate on Marine band then so be it but at this stage I can see no reason why it should not be possible to operate it on both bands.

Paul.

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: You will be talking to yourself

Take your point about the calls originating from overseas... though I still wonder who will call and how they will know to do it. Sailmail is not ham but marine ssb.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: You will be talking to yourself

In any case you may not pass messages for third parties over the amateur service with a UK ham licence.

I have recently seen that it is believed that this may be changed soon. It was not from an official UK source but an informed one in another nation. That would bring you into line with most of the rest of us who are allowed to pass brief personal messages for third parties even if no full third party agreement exists - those messages may even be "quasi-commercial", a common simple example given being "You can ask another ham over the radio to order a pizza for you but you cannot order the pizza oneself". This is of obvious usefulness to cruising hams for ordering spares and is widely used.

In any event, it would be very difficult to believe that any authority is going to be upset if a sailor reported his position and all is well to an amateur, as Paul has suggested, and then that amateur passed that information on to another agreed non ham party. I think your claim is really just contrived to make life difficult for this thread's discusssion rather than having any real basis.

John

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: You will be talking to yourself

Why bother when the marine bands are available? I expect more people have marine ssb than ham, too. In any case I don't care whether he goes against the terms of his licence or not, but he needs to watch his back advertising doing so on here. There are people who are just dying to ingratiate themselves with whoever is in power, even in a tiny field like ham radio and incredibly some post on here. How abt a sked? See you next Tuesday?

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: You will be talking to yourself

Why bother when the marine bands are available?

Because at the land end one is not allowed to operate a marine ssb from a shore station without a shore station licence and that will not be issued for the purpose discussed. If marine ssb is used then the shore end is limited to being operated from a boat in a marina, which cuts down the options somewhat both from an accessibility and propagation point of view.

John

 

[PaulJ]

Re: You will be talking to yourself

Capabar, you are right! Sailmail is on Marine band and use of the name was a "slip of the finger" on my part. The Sailmail organisation actually operate TWO similar systems, Sailmail for Marine band and "Winlink 2000" for Hams I should have said Winlink but the two systems are essentially the same except that you can use Sailmail for commercial messages.

To return to the point about passing messages to a third party, If I report on the forum that I HAVE SPOKEN TO a particular boat which was in such and such position and that the occupants were in good health (or not) I don't think that would constitute passing on a message.....?

As Snowleopard has pointed out, on this forum we have a good pool of potential participants on both bands and in widely spread locations so I think we have the potential to provide a useful facility for each other...... if enough of us are prepared to give it a go. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[jerryat]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\"

Hi Paul,

I don't agree with Capabar in general. I understand what you are suggesting and see no reason, in principle, why it wouldn't work, but have already noted my caveats on the other thread so won't repeat them here.

The selection of a frequency close the UK Maritime Net may cause problems initially, though I don't believe it will be so in the longer term when (and if) the Scuttlenet becomes established.

I think though, there is another issue which needs addressing, and that is the timing of transmissions. You will know that Herb starts his communications with yachts on the east/west Atlantic route (e.g.) with those furthest east, working gradually, and LATER with those further west. So that when you leave say, Bermuda for the Azores or Gib., you may be speaking with him at (approx) 2000, but by the time you are past the Azores, it may be 2200 or later.

This is partly because he is working other yachts with his aerial directed towards their location, and partly because the further eastwards you go, the later the transmision needs to be to allow good contact due to progagation.

It may be that an early single time for the initiation of contacts (everyone tries to 'check in' with Herb before he starts contacting any yachts for example) might be unsuitable for many, who MAY simply not be heard. It is one of the reasons why I, and one or two others, have pointed out the difficulty of operating a net without a very dedicated, informed controller, who is 'available' daily over a period of hours. That's some commitment! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Herb, for example, knows that a yacht should have checked in, and will call THEM if they're not heard at the expected time. Casual checking in may therefore not work too well without a constant 'listener'.

It might be better for initial contacts to be made later than the time you suggest to increase the chance of everyone being heard, however faintly. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Whilst I wouldn't be inclined to use the net myself, I can see it's attraction to many, so I hope my initial cautions can be overcome and that I don't think of any more!!

Hope this helps a bit,

Cheers Jerry

 

[kimhollamby]

Separate forum

As and when you need something for this purpose let me know...sounds like a good idea.

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: You will be talking to yourself

Of course you can report that you have spoken to someone on a ham net (though not legally, believe it or not). I just think that it will creep up from there, and then someone will complain you are advertising it etc etc etc. You won't believe the things they complain about. I still think the duplication of UK MM net is an issue.

 

[iangrant]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\"

well i think it is a brilliant idea to set up a scuttlenet - I'm off in July and would love to natter over the airwav es

Ian

 

[PaulJ]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\"

Jerry, thanks for your support. All the points you make are perfectly valid but unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world...... There is no way we will ever find someone who is prepared to sit there for hours on end in the same way as Herb does and the laws of physics dictate that we will not be able to contact eveybody, everywhere all the time.

The reason I suggested a frequency in the 20 mtr band is that it seems to work well for a lot of other nets, including the UK Maritime Net. 14,337 is not so close that it could cause any confusion or interference but it is close enough that you could use first one and then the other with only a small twiddle of the knob. I do not see it as duplicating or clashing with the UKMN, just another facility that is available to yotties if they want to use it. It is true that 1800 UK time will not be good for propagation all around the world but that should be compensated for to some extent by the fact that we will have (hopefully!) a lot of people listening out in different parts of the globe and with luck, someone somewhere will be able to receive your position report and put it on the forum. I suggested 1800 local UK time but that is only my suggestion as a starting point. If most people think a different time or frequency would be better, then let's do that...... but you have to start somewhere. If problems become apparent, we can change it.

If this idea were to take off, I think it is likely that "local factions" would spring up in different areas on different frequencies and at different times but as long as they can all post the position reports on the forum that wouldn't matter.... in fact it would be great! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Paul.

 

[PaulJ]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\"

Many thanks for your support Ian, don't forget to "remind" us before you go! Will you be on Marine or Amateur band and if Marine, can you (or anybody else) suggest a suitable frequency?

Paul.

 

[iangrant]

Re: \"Scuttlenet\"

I'll have a look at my set frequencies programmed in if we start in the 2kHz then move up to 4 then 8 etc to try to bring in a fer more - there is an arc net that kicks off in August off Portugal so perhaps we could have ours as a forerunner?

If we agree the frequency then sat 17oo BST will suit I guess.. I've yet to talk to anyone on the ssb!! I tried on sat but nothing thinks it was abit far up the band to start with

maybe we should take up Kim's offer and have an offshore radio net section


Ian