Satellite Phone

[Just Cruising]

Ladies and Gents, Happy New Year.

May I ask for the collective advice regarding Sat Phones and issues regarding their purchase. We are looking at the Iridium Extreme but wondered if there was anyone out htere with experience of such a beast. Our frinds have just crossed the pond with a phone which didnt have text out facility so thats one but are there anyother ruggedised ones as other friends battery terminals corroded with anolder iridium phone and was useless when they needed it and abandoned their yacht.

We would only look to be using this on long passages to download weather and to receive weather texts from our sailing friends.

Any pointers gratefully received as well as any recommendations,

thank you and fair winds and sunshine to all.

JC

 

[Toutvabien]

Sat Phone

We bought a second hand Iridium phone from eBay and a data link and sim package of 500 minutes over 12 monthes from Mailasail at the LBS. This linked up to a laptop that we used to download gribs each day on passage and to send and recieve emails that were written off line. This worked very well with an external ariel extension to keep the laptop and phone securely on the chart table and enable th ariel to be up top. Download speeds were pretty good and a days emails including GRIB files, text only, would be sent and recieved in a minute or two. The 500 mins lasted us a year and we used it to make a few calls, such as Christmas day at sea phone call to Grandma for our kids.

When we came back we sold the phone, (for what we paid for it), to a YBW forum member who has taken it back to the Carribean.

Key issues for me:

Ensuring a decent external ariel,
Data connection set up for computer needs to be configured and tested properly before you need to use it in anger,
Back up laptop with same settings to interface with data connection in case first one breaks.

 

[Roberto]

I have used an Iridium in the past, but currently have an Isatphone.

It is a bit "rugged" (see the web site for exact IP ratings), but not totally waterproof.
When you start it, it gets a GPS fix before connecting to the satellite (geostationary).
Battery life a lot better than Iridium 9555, though if you use it for data every time you connect it to the PC it will begin charging.

I have the impression (not measured by any standard) that data-wise it is a bit slower than Iridium, the initial and final connection time definitely so, then the data transfer speed proper looks similar.
The Isatphone connection is definitely more robust than Iridium (talking about stand-alone units, without external antenna), just roughly point the antenna towards the equator and if you have a big batch of data the connection will not "lose" the signal even with one single signal bar, whereas Iridium appears more sensitive to satellites positions, sometimes the connection breaks when jumping from one satellite to the next.
Units with fixed external antennas may behave differently, I have no direct experience.

I bought mine when units still had 2 years validity, now units have similar validity to Iridiums, though from time to time Inmarsat gives a 2year extension for whatever amount one buys, buy 50 euro and you have the whole lot extended for two years...

Voice and text messaging are pretty much the same.

 

[balauru_furios]

We would only look to be using this on long passages to download weather and to receive weather texts from our sailing friends.

Then what you're looking for is not a handheld terminal but a fixed terminal designed for marine installation and with data capabilities. Something like the Thrane&Thrane Sailor SC4000.
Many people make the mistake to purchase handheld satphones plus non-marine docking stations (because they are cheap) . Depending on the humidity level on your boat these might work for a while, but will fail sooner or later, usually when you need them most.

Kyocera made a great marine docking station for their Iridium phone but unfortunatelly that one has no data capability. That would be a cheap and very reliable alternative tho for someone looking just for voice calls.

 

[Palarran]

I used an Iridium 9555 for an Atlantic crossing this summer. I didn't scrimp on data or phone use during the 25 days and we used about 800 minutes ($1/minute). That was getting two large area grib downloads per day, calling home every day (spread between 3 crew), and sending e-mail updates to our blog.

I had quite a few dropped signals with the puck external antenna so just ended up putting the phone in a kleenex box and leaned it against a window. Then we had few if any signal problems. I would highly recommend this phone for what you have described.

As an FYI, my boat came with a 5 year old Fleet Broadband 500 (same as a Sailor). I left it on the dock the day we set out on the crossing. The cost of use is huge-huge-huge.

 

[E1_1966]

Satcoms

JC, a Happy new year to you and all the others here.

One of the Iridium handlhelds would suit you completely.
Expanded with a dock and external antenna, and you should be good to giggle.
You can just use the data cable direct and stick the unit in a convenient location, I once demonstrated such a lash up sat on a harbour wall near Lymington and ended up doing the comms for the last Global Challenge race.
Good data throughput, better than Mini-M but havent tested agains Isatphone.

As someone said, an SC4000 would give you a complete unit with rugged antenna, but its a fixed unit, so you couldnt grab it as part of an escape strategy, should things go pear shaped.
An alternative is a fixed unit which is currently used as a last ditch citadel solution for comms when pirates get onboard merchant vessels. It does daily/weekly/hourly reporting via SMS, has data and voice capability, has everything in the antenna pod (rugby ball sized) and nice web interface to program it. It aint cheap though, but nor is an SC4000.
Iridium have always used passive antennas, no moving parts.

I have to admit, I am biased against Inmarsat at the moment and the Isatphone and Fleet Broadband (FBB) products because of the insane pricing policies and raises they have brought in within the last year. Looking at second price change in a year, due to become effective around March this year, when they used to have a decreasing price range over a product life!!

A slightly larger alternative is the Iridium OpenPort/Pilot which is physically bigger, but does give you direct IP connectivity. If you have a lot of voice use, say over 7000 minutes per year, then you should be able to get the terminal free and pay around 60 US cents per minute with prepaid voice cards. Any data use would be extra and be around $9 per megabyte.

if you need any more help, then drop me a PM
cheers
E1

PS Ariel is for cleaning clothes or receiving TV signals, Antennas send and receive communications... As my old Signals instructors used to gently slap us with!

 

[balauru_furios]

Iridium also raised the prices a bit since Jan 1st.
You're absolutelly correct about the SC4000 being a fixed terminal and therefore not suited for a grab-bag. But for that purpose you can always keep a 9505 or a 9505A in a waterproof case. The 9505 can be purchased on fleabay for as low as 200 quid.
This setup (fixed SC4000 plus cheap handheld) would also give you the capability to call your own yacht at half rate if you're having a shore trip for example.

As an FYI, my boat came with a 5 year old Fleet Broadband 500 (same as a Sailor). I left it on the dock the day we set out on the crossing. The cost of use is huge-huge-huge.

When you say "same as Sailor" you mean same manufacturer, right? Because otherwise it's a completelly different product. (Inmarsat fleet broadband with speeds up to 432 kbps - hence the cost of using the data connection)
Back to the SC4000, if you place a call with it you still get charged by Iridium for one call. I'm not sure what made you think otherwise.
I won't even start comparing proper installation (mast) of a good external Iridium antenna vs "putting the phone in a kleenex box and leaned it against a window". Usually what you want is being able to use the phone in any weather.
Btw, I'm not sure if you're aware of the fact that used SC4000 units can be purchased (complete, including antenna and surge arrestor) for about 6-700 quid. The cable and connectors required for mast installation would add another 50-70 if you shop carefully. That's not far from the cost of a second-hand 9555.

 

[E1_1966]

balauru,

As you rightly point out, the FBB service and iridium service are chalk and cheese, one run by Inmarsat and one by Iridium and never the twain shall meet/work!

FYI Thrane and Thrane have been bought out, the T&T name will probably get dropped, but think they will keep the Sailor brand, which is used for both FBB and Iridium products. The FBB 500, first generation, from T&T had a serious problem with the digital handsets, I noted around 30% failure rate/warranty replacement with them. Always have a PSTN back up phone with these!

Iridium pilot will cary data speeds of up to 134 Kbps, Fbb500 has an Inmarsat cap at 432Kbps (which is also capped by the hardware), Fbb 250 has a lot lower data rate. Inmarsat runs background IP on best effort and you will share whatever bandwidth is available with everyone else on your spot beam, so dont expect those figures as your connection speed. Iridium does the same, but shares it out a bit better in my experience, but then you buy the connection entirely differently for Iridium than Inmarsat.

cheers
E1

 

[balauru_furios]

FYI Thrane and Thrane have been bought out, the T&T name will probably get dropped, but think they will keep the Sailor brand, which is used for both FBB and Iridium products.

And before this, some years ago Thrane&Thrane purchased Eurocom who actually made these units
The brand doesn't really matter, the SC4000 product remains pretty much the same. I think at a certain point the old Motorola transceiver installed in the Eurocom ITU1000 units (that's how these phones were called before Thrane&Thrane purchased Eurocom) was replaced with a newer version, but as far as usage on a small yacht is concerned, this doesn't bring any relevant difference.

Tbh the Pilot is a great unit, but I don't see it being a realistic option (economically speaking) for a small yacht owner. Even a new SC4000 would be pushing it, but second-hand ones can be purchased relativelly cheap. (I'm not pulling the price off my hat as I sold 4 of these myself, all coming from commercial ships upgrading to the Iridium OpenPort terminal or, more recently, to the Pilot).

 

[Ariadne]

I have an Iridium phone for sale if anybody is interested, but it's in the Martinique along with me and the boat!

Complete installation includes; the 9522 TP Iridium base station, DPL hand set with wall mount, USB data transfer cables (for e-mail, etc), 12v DC power unit, 50 foot/15.24m aerial cable with end fittings, AD510-1 Passive Antenna with mounting, new March 2010.

Worth just over £2100 + VAT from a leading supplier, pm me if your interested it's at least 50% cheaper and VAT free.

 

[Arcarius]

Sat phone

pm sent

 

[MailASail]

I have used an Iridium in the past, but currently have an Isatphone.

It is a bit "rugged" (see the web site for exact IP ratings), but not totally waterproof.

In fact you only have to pick it up to see that it's not really even slightly waterproof? I have one on my desk in front of me and you can see the PCB through the connectors (something several people critiqued the Iridium for, claiming it spoiled the waterproofness)

The ISatphone Pro is actually tested to IP54, which means 5 minutes of "splashing water" (you need a 5 before it's hosepipe proof, and then only for 3 minutes).

Anything is better than nothing, but I would keep all the units dry, they will all fail rapidly if you use them and get them regularly wet... Treat them as dry use devices.

Note the latest Iridium is IP65 vs the isatphone pro IP54...

When you start it, it gets a GPS fix before connecting to the satellite (geostationary).

ie it takes up to several minutes (sometimes lots longer, but not that often) before you can make a call on it... The Iridium in contrast is usually booted and ready to make a call in 10-15 seconds.

It doesn't sound a lot, but often in the UK it's "f*scking cold" and I have to go out and call a customer and I can state that the boot time on the isatphone pro is enough that I'm usually really cold, fed up and not in a good mood by the time the phone is actually registered and ready to make a call... Also the dialing time to connect is around 40+ seconds, which in empirical terms is enough time that you keep removing the phone from your head and staring at the screen wondering if you actually pressed the button or if it's broken...

At the Southampton boatshow I can usually give a customer a headstart that they turn on the isatphone pro, let it register, dial their mobile phone, hit dial and I *still* have enough time to turn on the iridium, key in their phone number and my call will complete quicker than theirs.. Wow..

Battery life a lot better than Iridium 9555, though if you use it for data every time you connect it to the PC it will begin charging.

Hmm, both have poor life compared with an old Nokia black and white phone. The Iridium lasts around a day on standby, I see about the same on my isatphone pro

What I *do* see though is that our demo Iridium gets charged roughly twice a year, and we turn it on for 2 mins here and there for testing over the year. In contrast every time I take the ISAtphone Pro out it's flat... Not sure why, but it seems not to hold a charge when it's off, but not in use?? For an emergency phone this is a deal breaker to me...

I have the impression (not measured by any standard) that data-wise it is a bit slower than Iridium, the initial and final connection time definitely so, then the data transfer speed proper looks similar.

Iridium connects in 10 seconds, isatphone Pro connects in 40-60 seconds (plus an extra 40 seconds of dial time, but you aren't paying for that bit)

Iridium is then at least twice the speed to download data, ie what takes 1 min on Iridium takes 2 mins over isatphone pro. This can be even worse for certain types of download...

The Isatphone connection is definitely more robust than Iridium (talking about stand-alone units, without external antenna), just roughly point the antenna towards the equator and if you have a big batch of data the connection will not "lose" the signal even with one single signal bar, whereas Iridium appears more sensitive to satellites positions, sometimes the connection breaks when jumping from one satellite to the next.
Units with fixed external antennas may behave differently, I have no direct experience.

I disagree, however, some caveats are in order.

Iridium needs a decent antenna to work. Caveat a decent antenna and decent view of the sky it will remain connected pretty much indefinitely. Case in point there is a base on the South Pole where they have several Iridiums off the hook 24x7 and they rarely drop calls. We have had customers make 5+ hour calls without too much trouble (not a great idea though)

Inmarsat has satellites on the equator and if you are well within the coverage area then the satellite doesn't move and the antenna direction is fairly insensitive. So say in the Med or Caribbean customers are "satisfied" and it's hard to drop calls. However, go further north, eg into the UK and I find it very tricky to show a customer how to use this phone - they turn around say and the phone drops the call because the antenna is no longer pointed at the satellite. Same problem mid atlantic

So a lot depends on your area of use as to how happy you are. However, an Iridium with a decent antenna will have perfect signal all the time in practice. Plenty of people don't have a good antenna location for sure though...

I bought mine when units still had 2 years validity, now units have similar validity to Iridiums, though from time to time Inmarsat gives a 2year extension for whatever amount one buys, buy 50 euro and you have the whole lot extended for two years...

Phrased another way. Inmarsat just jacked the prices of this system up enormously and has promised further rises in a couple of months.

I disagree that "from time to time Inmarsat gives 2 year extensions". As a reseller I can assure you that the offers have changed permanently and no special deals have been made available since the 2 year validity of topups came to an end... Sorry... (Would love to have this option!!)


Hmm, this reads like I'm slating the isatphone pro. I guess I should nail my colours to the mast. *I* personally don't like the system. It's nearly the same money as an Iridium and costs nearly twice the price to use it for data. We get a ton of customer support cost to get it setup and wretched Inmarsat are fiddling and raising the prices on us faster than I can update our website. My experience is that it gets bought as an "emergency phone" and then because of it's limitations it only ever gets used for that (ie you don't use it). In contrast, the Iridium gets used a lot in the same hands (I won't hide, we benefit from that of course), however, the key thing is that the customer is usually more satisfied despite spending on the unit

 

[MailASail]

Then what you're looking for is not a handheld terminal but a fixed terminal designed for marine installation and with data capabilities. Something like the Thrane&Thrane Sailor SC4000.
Many people make the mistake to purchase handheld satphones plus non-marine docking stations (because they are cheap) . Depending on the humidity level on your boat these might work for a while, but will fail sooner or later, usually when you need them most.

I'm 100% behind you that the fixed phone works far better, however, unfortunately the mentioned SC4000 is just an ordinary 9522a (or b) transceiver in a REALLY big chassis with plenty of fresh air in it.

Most people can save money (and get more functionality, eg SMS messaging) by buying one of the other fixed phones (we sell a 9522-P, but there are others - they all by definition have the same basic insides, eg inside an SC4000 is *exactly* what you see in the pictures on our website of a 9522-P... cool huh)

Basically Iridium only make a single circuitboard and it's the same circuitboard in the 9555/9575 and 9522 fixed units. Every single one has exactly the same electronics inside.

Cool!

 

[MailASail]

I used an Iridium 9555 for an Atlantic crossing this summer. I didn't scrimp on data or phone use during the 25 days and we used about 800 minutes ($1/minute). That was getting two large area grib downloads per day, calling home every day (spread between 3 crew), and sending e-mail updates to our blog.

I had quite a few dropped signals with the puck external antenna so just ended up putting the phone in a kleenex box and leaned it against a window. Then we had few if any signal problems.

It's great to hear you had success, however, please note Iridium tends to either work brilliantly or you get nothing and it's all down to antenna... In general I would suggest that "leaning it against a window" is well below acceptable (however, fantastic that it worked ok for you - please assume that it will probably only work for 1-5% of people though..) :-(

Best is something outside, with a clear view of the sky and no metal obstructions within a few inches (reflections). Caveat this you should see zero dropped calls and max speeds all the time.

Granted we can complain it should be different, but it's what it is... Place your antenna well and you get perfect performance, place it badly and you get dropped calls constantly... Bummer..

We recommend an external antenna for all users, but they are reasonably pricey, so it's hard to call it mandatory. I think it's best if the user considers their experience and expectation - if you even vaguely "want it to just work" then get all the right kit and fit it nicely. If you are the kind of person who likes to solder their own serial cables together because that way you can guarantee best performance, then you are much better equipped to fiddle around and find satisfactory locations with a portable phone, etc (my thought is that the trend is towards the former these days, but try and decide yourself and buy appropriately?)

As an FYI, my boat came with a 5 year old Fleet Broadband 500 (same as a Sailor). I left it on the dock the day we set out on the crossing. The cost of use is huge-huge-huge.

That's a shame. The FleetBroadband (or even the Fleet) system is massively cheaper to run than the Iridium? Voice calls are lower, data speeds are massively higher and data costs are much much lower?

The latest tariffs on the FB system are handicapped in that they have fairly stiff minimum monthly contracts, but for a system which is being used more than "emergency only" then the running costs would work out dramatically better ($16/MB vs $100/MB)

If you were buying new today then I would recommend everyone look at the Iridium Pilot. It's a much higher priced system than a handheld Iridium, but the capabilities are dramatically higher, lower running costs, up to 3,000 mins free calls thrown in with the price and perhaps most attractively zero monthly line rental (ie costs you nothing if you don't use it).

Good luck with whatever you choose!

 

[balauru_furios]

I'm 100% behind you that the fixed phone works far better, however, unfortunately the mentioned SC4000 is just an ordinary 9522a (or b) transceiver in a REALLY big chassis with plenty of fresh air in it.

Most people can save money (and get more functionality, eg SMS messaging) by buying one of the other fixed phones (we sell a 9522-P, but there are others - they all by definition have the same basic insides, eg inside an SC4000 is *exactly* what you see in the pictures on our website of a 9522-P... cool huh)

Basically Iridium only make a single circuitboard and it's the same circuitboard in the 9555/9575 and 9522 fixed units. Every single one has exactly the same electronics inside.

Cool!

Did you ever opened a SC4000? As in removing even the screws that become accesible after removing the 9522 transceiver located on the back of the unit and actually taking out the big metal cover?
I guess not, because otherwise you wouldn't say it's full of air. When I get anothe one on my hands I'll open it up and take some photos. It actually has a very strong power source inside, allowing it to take anything between 10V and 32V without much fuzz.
I totally agree that the transceiver contains pretty much the same circuit board as the one found in other implementations of the same generation, but even that solid metal box can be damn useful in really bad weather. I've seen a SC4000 unit that had dents that were 2mm deep (in the strong aluminium case) caused by a large tool chest that started flying in the cabin during a bad storm. A 9522-P would have been crushed by that impact.

As for size, the main unit is 6 inches wide by 12 inches long. Considering the fact that it also includes the data kit and it's somehow water resistant (so to speak) I'd say it's a screaming deal at the current secondhand prices.

As for waterproof satphone units, the only really waterproof one I ever came across is the already mentioned Kyocera IM-S100. Unfortunatelly the Iridium phone that gets docked in it doesn't have data capabilities, otherwise it would be by far the best choice for small yachts, where humidity is always a problem.
I think I have one in a locker at the office, maybe I'll take the time to take some close-up shots on Monday, so you can compare it with more recent "waterproof" satphones.

 

[Roberto]

...

Thanks for your opinion as a professional reseller of both systems.

As a final user, I stand by everything I wrote, with the (*) correction below.
As I wrote, I specifically talked about:
handsets *without* external antenna (compared to the "Iridium with a decent antenna" you mention);
"rugged" units -not waterproof as you mention-;
after having used the two (Isatph and 95xx, not Extreme) I *never* experienced anything that could be defined "double data speed with Iridium vs Isatphone", for the typical grib or image file attachments; I used the same free compression software with the two. Are there probably more iridium-friendly commercial compression softwares, I do not know ;
GPS fix during a transat with a fix every 1-2-3 days, it always took less than 30 seconds at most, usually 10, it took two three minutes when I reopened the phone about 500miles away from the last fix;
etc etc.

Just to be clear, I probably would *not* buy an Isatphone today, not much for its technical capabilities, rather for the abrupt pricing policy of the company which showed off the "two year validity plan", then withdrew it a few months later. IMHO the two systems now are more or less technically equivalent, at least from a cruiser point of view and its usual 10-100kb daily data download during a 20-30 days ocean crossing? Isatphone lost the advantage of the extended validity, it keeps the cost of the handset significantly lower than Iridium.

But I am only an end user (though people even pay me for reading my stuff ).
As I said that's just my experience, sorry I do not fancy those endless threads I'll just stop here



(*) I wrote "from time to time Inmarsat gives a 2 year extension" which is not correct it just happened once so far, (one of?) their resellers gave it once, a few weeks ago: buying 100 units brought the whole unit credit balance to 2 years. Given that the new pricing structure became effective in June, let's say it was just a special offer six months later?


Regards
r

 

[balauru_furios]

Isatphone lost the advantage of the extended validity, it keeps the cost of the handset significantly lower than Iridium.

Maybe if you're talking new handsets. Otherwise a good Motorola 9500, including the data kit, can be purchased as low as 200 quid plus postage. (anyone who needs one can PM me I can get quite a few of these on relativelly short notice)
I agree it's a brick-sized phone from the late 90's but it will get the job done.
Plus, very important, if you're travelling to Aussie land you can add a GSM 900 casette (40 quid or so) and use a single Telstra SIM for both GSM and sat voice calls. Granted the sat calls would be at rip-off prices, but you won't even need to purchase a prepaid Iridium SIM.

 

[Ariadne]

I'll go with what Ed says.

Having owned both during the last 12 months and giving the Isatphone really good workout across the Atlantic twice, S Africa, Brazil & the Cape Verdes, using it for SMS, e-mail and voice on a daily basis.

I sold my IsatPhone as soon as I finished the job I was on, Iridium is a far better, much more stable and a faster system.

Its only redeeming (Isat) feature is it's cheaper to call the Europe on it than using a roaming cell phone or a landline.

Edit

While I remember the Isat really found it difficult to get a decent GPS/Sat fix 5 degrees either side of the equator, it was very hard to get fixes and extremely unstable. Pretty **** really considering it needs a fix to work!

 

[balauru_furios]

Didn't had time last week, but managed today to dig up the Kyocera docking. You can check out the pics and see for yourself how a waterproof unit should look like.
These are by far the best Iridium docking units for small ships, where humidity levels are high (provided you have where to fit the 15" x 12" box). Not to mention they would take a direct splash without any problem and would even survive complete immersion if fitted with properly sized cables(see photos). Unfortunatelly no one bothered to build something with similar waterproof features for the more recent Iridium terminals or even for the older Motorola(s).

 

[npf1]

Whilst the experts are on here, I'd be very interested to hear your opinions on real world use of Thuraya in European waters, specifically its ‘high’ speed gprms (?) data capability. It sounds good (always on, not hugely expensive etc), but is the reality somewhat different?

Many thanks in advnace.