Sailing with young people - insurance ..?

C

Carduelis

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 Apr 2006
Messages
292
Location
Live in Cambridge.
Visit site
I've been asked if I will take 5 or 6 lads and lasses aged 15-17 from our local youth club for a weekend sail on my own boat. I'm delighted to do it, but SWMBO has asked if I need special insurance or anything in case of a mishap to one of them and their parents try to sue me. Good point!

Would a simple parental permission slip do?

I'm a RYA YM and also have a CRB clearance for working with youngsters. I'm not being paid, but they will chip in something to pay for food etc.

Any thoughts anyone?
 
Consider having a leader to look after the crew whilst you sail the boat or have some compedent to sail whilst you sort out crew matters etc. unless they have experience whilst you are not setting out as an instructor they will need basic instruction
 
Carduelis said:
I've been asked if I will take 5 or 6 lads and lasses aged 15-17 from our local youth club for a weekend sail on my own boat. I'm delighted to do it, but SWMBO has asked if I need special insurance or anything in case of a mishap to one of them and their parents try to sue me. Good point!

Would a simple parental permission slip do?

I'm a RYA YM and also have a CRB clearance for working with youngsters. I'm not being paid, but they will chip in something to pay for food etc.

Any thoughts anyone?
Click to expand...

CRB Checks are location specific. So you'll need one done for your boat.
 
I had the same issue a few years ago: if you are doing this on a purely voluntary basis, then it is no different to taking anyone else out in your boat privately. However, if you are in any sense 'responsible' legally for the youngsters - i.e. ina position to havea 'duty of care' towards them above that of John Citizen, then you do need at least to check it out with your Insurance company. If you have any sort of Contractual obligations such as being a paid youth leader or carer then the situation becomes much more complicated, as you could be regarded as doing this in the course of your profession, even if you were not being paid for it.

If you are being paid for it, then you and your boat immediately become a 'commercial vessel' subject to the quite strict rules on safety certification etc. This is where I came unstuck, as I wanted to take some people with learning Difficulties from the centre where I worked, out for a sail. After lengthy discussions with my Insurers, and the local harbour master and Social Services who I worked forit all proved just too complicated, and my people never did get on the water! The issue was furthr confused by the fact that I did have a current Commercial DoT Licence as it was then, qualifying me to be in charge of Class V and VI Passenger vessels. Whether your YM will complicate things in the same way, I dont know.

Elfin safety gorn mad again.. :(
 
Last edited:
dodgy proposition. the law assumes differing levels of supervision required according to age and certainly there ius an age below which the usual disclaimers, warning notices etc dont work with kids. personally I would not take the risk and when I did RYA training I refused to train youngsters for just that reason.
 
st599 said:
CRB Checks are location specific. So you'll need one done for your boat.
Click to expand...
They are not location specific but 'role specific'. The CRB is for the organisation that you are working/volunteering for and not the place where you are doing the work/volunteering. At the last count I've got five CRB checks for various roles and responsibilities.

mainsail1 said:
Best leave them ashore. Not worth the risk these days. The UK has gone mad!
Click to expand...
Not true. Its that attitude that is stifling the country which is symptomatic of a paranoia fed by the likes of the Daily Mail

birdseye said:
dodgy proposition. the law assumes differing levels of supervision required according to age and certainly there ius an age below which the usual disclaimers, warning notices etc dont work with kids. personally I would not take the risk and when I did RYA training I refused to train youngsters for just that reason.
Click to expand...
No idea why one would refuse to work with young people. The regulations are quite straightforward and are easy to understand. The OP should just ask the youth club.

So long as they are not paying for the use of the boat and they are only contributing to food etc then it is NOT a commercial operation. This does not preclude you from taking reasonable care of them - in just the same way that as master of the vessel you are obliged to take reasonable care of your crew and to follow IRPCS and make a passage plan. As I understand it, if there was an accident you would need to show that you have normal standards of safety equipment on board. eg lifejackets for everyone and appropriate safety equipment. Its a duty of care matter which applies to all of us when we take friends or family sailing.
 
Its not 'that attitude that is stifling the country'. It is the attitude of lawyers, politicians and people who always want to blame someone else for anything untoward that happens. Can you imagine the grief a poor hapless sailor would get into if one of those kids was injured whether or not their fault or if one of the youths made an 'allegation'. Not worth the risk until the UK reverts to a sensible condition if ever that happens.
 
mainsail1 said:
Its not 'that attitude that is stifling the country'. It is the attitude of lawyers, politicians and people who always want to blame someone else for anything untoward that happens. Can you imagine the grief a poor hapless sailor would get into if one of those kids was injured whether or not their fault or if one of the youths made an 'allegation'. Not worth the risk until the UK reverts to a sensible condition if ever that happens.
Click to expand...
Sorry - I still think that's almost pure paranoia.

Firstly regarding 'allegations' the guidelines for care of young people and children are quite clear. Don't put yourself into a position where what is happening isn't obvious and open. I was helping my wife (who is a Head-teacher) with a school trip. We were looking at fish in the National Aquarium in Plymouth when one of the children asked me to scratch their back. It was an entirely innocent remark by an eight year old. The paranoid response is that you don't touch the child but the correct answer was you scratch their back! What you don't do is take them off by themselves into a dark corner to scratch their back. So if you take young people sailing have another adult with you and don't start disappearing down below into cabins to give 'special instructions'. Just use some common sense!

Secondly the injury bit is covered by your insurance. Just make sure you've taken reasonable care of people and stop them doing stupid things. In reality you can't stop people doing stupid things, but so long as everyone has heard you say 'don't stand up when we are gybing' or 'keep your head down' and you've reinforced the instruction or safety brief then you are NOT culpable for their own stupidity. I mention gybing as its NOT obvious to non-sailors what is going to happen and a good example of where you need to take reasonable care of people - just as you would your family and friends when out sailing.

Again its common sense that's needed. What you need is to be sure that if something really did go wrong you can put your hand on your heart and say that you had briefed them properly and told them about things and this is what happened despite your best efforts and this is why. The reality is that nothing will happen - but you cover yourself by taking reasonable care of people.
 
You are a braver man than I am Gunga Din! - to misquote Kipling

john_morris_uk said:
Sorry - I still think that's almost pure paranoia.

Firstly regarding 'allegations' the guidelines for care of young people and children are quite clear. Don't put yourself into a position where what is happening isn't obvious and open. I was helping my wife (who is a Head-teacher) with a school trip. We were looking at fish in the National Aquarium in Plymouth when one of the children asked me to scratch their back. It was an entirely innocent remark by an eight year old. The paranoid response is that you don't touch the child but the correct answer was you scratch their back! What you don't do is take them off by themselves into a dark corner to scratch their back. So if you take young people sailing have another adult with you and don't start disappearing down below into cabins to give 'special instructions'. Just use some common sense!

Secondly the injury bit is covered by your insurance. Just make sure you've taken reasonable care of people and stop them doing stupid things. In reality you can't stop people doing stupid things, but so long as everyone has heard you say 'don't stand up when we are gybing' or 'keep your head down' and you've reinforced the instruction or safety brief then you are NOT culpable for their own stupidity. I mention gybing as its NOT obvious to non-sailors what is going to happen and a good example of where you need to take reasonable care of people - just as you would your family and friends when out sailing.

Again its common sense that's needed. What you need is to be sure that if something really did go wrong you can put your hand on your heart and say that you had briefed them properly and told them about things and this is what happened despite your best efforts and this is why. The reality is that nothing will happen - but you cover yourself by taking reasonable care of people.
Click to expand...
 
john_morris_uk said:
Secondly the injury bit is covered by your insurance. Just make sure you've taken reasonable care of people and stop them doing stupid things. In reality you can't stop people doing stupid things, but so long as everyone has heard you say 'don't stand up when we are gybing' or 'keep your head down' and you've reinforced the instruction or safety brief then you are NOT culpable for their own stupidity. I mention gybing as its NOT obvious to non-sailors what is going to happen and a good example of where you need to take reasonable care of people - just as you would your family and friends when out sailing.
Click to expand...

It really isnt that simple with kids. Leaving aside the kiddie fiddling issue you alluded to in the first part of your post, you legally assume extra responsibilities when you take care of a minor. It isnt the same legally as looking after an adult on board and you cannot just assume that a warning is sufficient of itself with a child. Sure the law expects less of you as children grow older but if the kids are quite young ( and I am not sure of the ages involved) then the law expects you to closely supervise the child. You cannot do that whilst sailing a boat and with several kids on board.
 
birdseye said:
It really isnt that simple with kids. Leaving aside the kiddie fiddling issue you alluded to in the first part of your post, you legally assume extra responsibilities when you take care of a minor. It isnt the same legally as looking after an adult on board and you cannot just assume that a warning is sufficient of itself with a child. Sure the law expects less of you as children grow older but if the kids are quite young ( and I am not sure of the ages involved) then the law expects you to closely supervise the child. You cannot do that whilst sailing a boat and with several kids on board.
Click to expand...
The OP referred to a youth club and therefore I was not referring to younger children in my comments. Teenagers are deemed to be responsible for their actions in law so your comments, although relevant to young children, don't automatically apply to taking teenagers sailing.
 
I'm right with john morris on this one. Please don't give in to the paranoia and H&S scaremongering. If we all did that, there would be that many less youngsters taking up the sport.
I take out a bunch of teenagers from my old school each year for a weekend to Poole or similar. They have to be accompanied by a schoolmaster (I am not interested in getting clearance for myself) and I take extra precautions compared to those with experienced crew. These do include wearing lifejackets, care on gybes etc, and particularly not knocking over glasses of red wine on the upholstery. Or chucking up down below.
End result has been usually a great weekend regardless of the weather, and requests from the kids to be able to come back next year.
 
john_morris_uk said:
The OP referred to a youth club and therefore I was not referring to younger children in my comments. Teenagers are deemed to be responsible for their actions in law so your comments, although relevant to young children, don't automatically apply to taking teenagers sailing.
Click to expand...
age 16 is the point at which they become reponsible for themselves
 
Bosun Higgs said:
age 16 is the point at which they become reponsible for themselves
Click to expand...
I think you'll find its a little more complex than that:


From the NSPCC website which was the first one I found to quote:

"The age of criminal responsibility is the age at which, in the eyes of the law, a child is capable of committing a crime and therefore old enough to stand trial and be convicted of a criminal offence.

In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the age of criminal responsibility is 10 years and in Scotland it is 12 years."

See also: http://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/

The complexity is that a child age 10 in England and Wales is considered mature enough to know right from wrong and be criminally responsible for their actions, this doesn't mean that the skipper of a boat doesn't have a duty of care towards anyone on his/her boat.

But the bottom line is: Be sensible. Give proper briefs and show that you are a responsible and careful skipper and you will be fine. To the OP - take some adult youth leaders with you and tell them to help keep order. My experience of sailing with young people is that they are so over awed by the whole experience (and being given some responsibility for the boat) that behaviour is rarely a problem.
 
john_morris_uk said:
To the OP - take some adult youth leaders with you and tell them to help keep order. My experience of sailing with young people is that they are so over awed by the whole experience (and being given some responsibility for the boat) that behaviour is rarely a problem.
Click to expand...

I would go with that 100%. A long time ago I helped with a summer youth camp for inner city youngsters, and as my boat was nearby I took groups out sailing each day: these tough little toerags, who normally gave us quite a rough time, loved every minute of it. Each had a turn at the helm, and they were talking about it for weeks after in awed tones! I limited the number to four per trip, and insisted on at least one other adult with me. I needn't have bothered - they were brilliant! The rougher the better as far as they were concerned which was as well on a windy week.
 
One other simple thing - not sure the size of boat but worth a quick look on the CE plate to check that the total number of people doesn't exceed the plate. No big deal in real world, but can be awkward if something went wrong
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top