Sailing Knives and the law?

[graham]

Just read an item in our local rag about a 35 yr old man convicted of carrying a folding pocket knife with a blade longer than 3 inches.He got 8 weeks in jail for it.

Does anyone know the implications of carrying a sailing knife ?I just measured the blade on my knife which is less than 3 inches ,not sure if that makes it legal or not.

 

[snowleopard]

If it is a folding knife like a penknife the key test is whether the blade can be locked in the open position. A swiss army knife is OK but most folding sailing knives are not. Moral - leave it on the boat.

 

[sarabande]

you have to have reasonable grounds or lawful authority for carrying a knife with a blade of any length in public. If it's at work, eg. on the boat, or on the farm, or an electrician on a building site, that's OK.

It would be very difficult to prove that you needed it in transit between the dinghy (allowed) and the pub (not allowed) unless you can show that you were keeping it safe and not ready for immediate use, in preference to leaving it stowed in the dinghy.

The local PCs allow us to carry all sorts of sharp blades (axe, slasher, foot paring knives, ordinary pocket knives, etc) in a vehicle, if it's used for farming purposes, and the knife is securely stowed / hidden when you leave the car.

Certain kinds of knives (e.g flick knives, and Japanese fighting knives) are banned anyway, but Sikh karpans are allowed, as are penknives / Leatherman / Swiss army devices (< 3 inch blades) OK, but if carried as an offensive weapon or used threateningly, then that's a serious crime.

 

[Judders]

I have two knives on the boat. One is a bespoke sailing knife which is kept in the chart table and is the one there for an emergancy. I have a second knife which is actually an issue commando knife. It's my every day knife used for ropework and the like. Would the law look at the two differently? If say, as per the scenario above, I have it in my pocket in the pub in preference to leaving it in the dinghy?

The problem is, that whilst ever the police are so target driven (remember the stripper arrested for impersonating a Police Officer?), I fear that we (yachties) might make easy numbers.

 

[cliffordpope]

I walked down our lane the other day carrying a sickle with a 12" blade. That's because I had a legitimate purpose - I was going to cut grass.
At other times I carry a 6' pike with a wickedly sharp 9" blade on the end. It's for hedge cutting.
Sometimes I use a chainsaw - for cutting overhanging trees. But not for opening Securicor vans outside Barclays.

On the other hand, if I walked into a bank and weilded an artist's knife with a 1/4" blade, I'd rightly be arrested and charged.
It all depends on the circumstances and purpose.

 

[Evadne]

I find it hard to believe that even the most target-driven copper is going to walk up to a random punter in the pub, having a quiet beer after a day's sailing, minding his/her own business, and demand that they empty their pockets, on the off chance that they're carrying a knife.
If you took it out and stabbed the landlord's dog with it, then things would probably turn out differently.
I feel undressed if I am on the water without a knife of some description in my pocket. I try and remember to leave my big sailing knife aboard, but don't always succeed. If you use it as a tool, not a weapon, then nobody will ever know you have it. Ashore, I have always carried a penknife (an Opinel No. 5 currently) and always will. Sometimes I wonder exactly which planet these journalists are on.

 

[Beadle]

I'd be careful not to take the commando knife off the boat.

Its clearly designed for things other than ropework and might take a very persuasive bit of explanation if you were walking down the street with it.

All this never used to be a problem until this moronic government started to use the law as an electioneering tool.

Not even sure any more whether the notion of having a legitimate reason for having a knife counts anymore - the "crime" is possession, and the government are urging courts to lock people up for it.

 

[reginaldon]

It's difficult to enter the current mind set - when I was a kid everyone one of us at school sported a knife, preferably a scout knife with nary a thought of sticking it in anyone - apart from the rather silly gamer of directing the spike to and fro in the separate gaps between one's own outstretched fingers. The scout knife was the basic equipment of every self-repecting schoolboy.
I have had to check that I've not brought a knife ashore with me.

 

[sarabande]

I think it's a bit more plain possession. There has to be an intent mens rea to use it to threaten, or as a weapon.

At least, I'd hope so.

 

[SirSnoozalot]

One does worry about such things nowadays, but also wonder about the stories in the papers etc.

There was one recently about a lad arrested for having a fishing knife that created a load of fuss in the press. I remember seeing a police inspector interviewed on About Anglia or similar saying yes, he was prosecuted, but the papers did not mention the fact that he had no other fishing gear with him.

Perhaps, we should carry a liferaft with us, as a justifiable reason to be in possession of a knife?

Roll on the day when the police get the power of discretion given back to them and the soppy target scheme removed.

 

[rhinorhino]

As mentioned before a folding knife with a blade of less than three inches is OK under Section 139 CJA providing that the blade does not lock in position (so for example a Leatherman is not a folding knife for these purposes) any other sharply pointed item can only be carried legally if you have a reasonable excuse to do so.
Under the offensive weapon laws it is illegal to carry any item made or adapted to cause injury (whatever the size of the blade) or to carry any item with intent to cause injury. Certain other weapons are also specifically prohibited.
The problem with these pieces of legislation is that they rely on discretion and common sense on the part of those enforcing them, both the Police and the Courts.
If the Police chose to do a sweep of Cowes High Street one afternoon in Cowes week and arrested everyone with a Gerber or a Leatherman on them, and the CPS decided to charge they would probably secure convictions and even prison sentences.
Worrying?

 

[rhinorhino]

Not so i'm afraid ....

 

[wotayottie]

[ QUOTE ]

Roll on the day when the police get the power of discretion given back to them and the soppy target scheme removed.

[/ QUOTE ]

They already have as much discretion as they can have - how else do they manage to ignore much of the crime that is reported to them? What they dont seem to have is enough officers with commonsense and the willingness to use it.

 

[sarabande]

Do you mean that simple possession is enough to drop one in it ?

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When this was discussed at a Young Farmers meeting, the law said the CPS would have to prove possession with intent.

 

[SirSnoozalot]

Well, I don't suppose I can really argue with that, but there are some decent ones still about.

 

[snowleopard]

The idea that you're OK if you keep it in your pocket is optimistic. If for any reason the police stop and search you and find a knife you'll have a hell of a job talking your way out of it.

 

[rhinorhino]

Yes, simple possession is enough, the Police to not have to prove intent you have to prove you had a reasonable excuse, at least so far as an offense under Section 139 is concerned.
A charge of possessing a offensive weapon which is not offensive in itself (ie a table knife) requires proof of intent, a charge of carrying a weapon made to cause injury (ie offensive in itself eg a bayonet) requires no proof of intent.

 

[Csail]

As you know i'm not a crim. but by accident i have regularly taken my diving knife into pubs and clubs. It has saved two crew in the past but i would never use it in a pub braul (spelling).
Everyday i carry the Gerber or Leatherman multitool though.

 

[graham]

Found this which has some guidance. Knife Law Interestingly theres no mention on the site of blades that lock in place being illegal ,

It does say that carrying a knife is illegal without a good reason. I should think that carrying a sailing knife to and from your boat would be good reason.Maybe not an excuse if you stopped off at the pub on the way home?

 

[rhinorhino]

Only knives that "fold" are exempt, legally a "locking" knife does not fold.
Site is in fact a bit misleading on a number of points.

"Having bladed article in public place - a knife which locks automatically upon being opened is not a "folding pocket knife" within section 139(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Archbold, 1998, § 24-125); such a knife is thus an article to which that section applies: R. v. Deegan, The Independent, February 6, 1998, C.A. (following Harris v. D.P.P.; Fehmi v. D.P.P., 96 Cr.App.R. 235, D.C., and rejecting an attempt, based on Pepper v. Hart [1993] A.C. 593, H.L., to demonstrate that Parliament had intended to exclude such knives from the scope of the section).
Date of Judgment: February 4, 1998
Judges: Waller L.J., Owen J., Sullivan J."