Sailing in F5/6

[geem]

My preference is about 20 degrees to the true wind, with the main reefed to keep the angle of heel to below the 15 maximum that my engine allows. There are occasions where this is not possible though, as when we met an un-forecast blow when coming out of the Roompot and only a relatively narrow channel with 3-4 knots current under us. Sometimes you just have to soldier on.

Interesting that the maximum angle of heal is only 15deg. Our Perkins M92b continues heal is 25deg .
We did a trip from Cuba up the Windward Passage to the Bahamas. 180nm to windward in winds up to 38kts. Friends in 40ft cruiser racer left Santiago de Cuba at the same time. They weighed 6t we weigh closer to 19t. They left before us but we caught them in up. When we caught them they had no sail up. We spoke on the VHF and they said it was too rough to make any progress under sail alone and motor sailing wasn't an option due to the extreme angle of heel. Hence motor only. We managed to motorsail quite effectively when the winds were peaking at 38kts. No problem keeping under 25degs.

 

[Blueboatman]

“ nothing goes to windward like a Boeing”

But then again ,

“nothing goes quite like a bilgekeel Corrribee , junk rigged,laden, beating into the trade winds …?”

And they all get there!

 

[johnalison]

Interesting that the maximum angle of heal is only 15deg. Our Perkins M92b continues heal is 25deg .
We did a trip from Cuba up the Windward Passage to the Bahamas. 180nm to windward in winds up to 38kts. Friends in 40ft cruiser racer left Santiago de Cuba at the same time. They weighed 6t we weigh closer to 19t. They left before us but we caught them in up. When we caught them they had no sail up. We spoke on the VHF and they said it was too rough to make any progress under sail alone and motor sailing wasn't an option due to the extreme angle of heel. Hence motor only. We managed to motorsail quite effectively when the winds were peaking at 38kts. No problem keeping under 25degs.

I was going by the information in my Volvo manual. It may well be different for different engines.

 

[geem]

“ nothing goes to windward like a Boeing”

But then again ,

“nothing goes quite like a bilgekeel Corrribee , junk rigged,laden, beating into the trade winds …?”

And they all get there!

Who beats in the trades? It's all down hill across the pond or beam on once sailing in the islands? that's the beauty of sailing in the Windward and Leeward islands

 

[Minerva]

Well. to be fair, in much the same way as one might end up with a child when expecting it the least, but you still learn to love it and bring it up to be a balanced and well performing adult.

We had really been looking for a boat to simply get us a cross the Channel and into the nearest French canal. A roof over our heads seemed a sensible solution at the time, as did the ability to motor against river currents, combined with shallow draft and sufficient displacement to comfortably carry the amount of junk and tools we tend to collect.

Alas, ambitions change and we decided we still liked sailing too much and to postpone the canal business to a later date and explore the European coast line instead.

Unfortunately, as designed our CW didn't really sail all that well even though ours already had 1/3 more SA than the standard model. Her worst feature was by far her steering which under sail could be most charitably described as sluggish and unreliable in as much as the rudder would stall out at the least provocation and leave us without steerage and, at times, dangerously so.

We could have sold her then, but by that time I had already invested a fair bit of effort into her and we loved the pilothouse. I have designed and built a number of boats, including a 50' o.D twin engine & rudder, lifting keel cruising cutter and have sailed and worked on a fair variety of other types. I was not ready to give up and I was sure I could, at the very least, improve her and this is exactly what we did.

So, while I can't say we chose her for specific qualities, I can say, and to some degree quantify in numbers, which of her evolved qualities I like or have grown to appreciate and how they compare to other types I have sailed.

1) Seaworthiness. She has to be the driest boat I have ever sailed on. I used to joke that the only way to get water on her decks was with a bucket, Having driven her into the face of a F8 with breaking seas, I'm ready to modify that statement somewhat to say we've never had solid water on deck. She has an extremely buoyant hull with high freeboard and tall flaired bows. The flair will increase resistance in high waves to slow us down, but we have never ever put her nose through a wave, which is more than I can say for any other type I have sailed on and not for want of trying either. We have really put her through the wringer on many occasions and she has never disappointed our trust or given us any concern. Her motion, due to her bouyancy can be a bit lively at times. Downwind however, she is remarkably stable and rolls very little, even when driven hard under spinnaker and at or above hull speed. I have sailed another, by a famous designer that would roll through a 100degr at the drop of a hat.

2) Shallow draft. I have to confess, I am a bit spoiled in this respect. My 50 footer drew 1.2m with the keel up - I took her through the French canals and visited harbours in the Baltic where the next largest boat was 26' long. At 1.34m with our current boat we were still able to revisit some of those places a couple of years ago. With a lateral plane of 12.9% of SA she still has enough area under water to ensure reasonable progress to weather. As lift is a function to the square of the speed, it helps to keep her moving briskly.

3) Stability. Compared to other motorsailers of her type she has rather firm bilges and lots of beam. Combined with a ballast ratio of 37% she can carry a, for a 31.5' footer, large SA up to a F6. AVS, providing the green house is still there when that happens and we managed to close the door, should be in the neighbourhood of 180 degr.

4) Directional stability. We have a traditional long keel with a fair degree of drag and a deep forefoot. She is directionaliy quite stable without requiring a lot of attention at the helm. Our ancient & somewhat lethargic first generation wheel pilot has no problem keeping course downwind and in a steep quartering sea. Having fairly well balanced ends with decent bouyancy and a centre of lateral plane that is slightly behind the CoG helps.

5)Speed. This may appear to be an oxymoron in context of a Colvic Watson, but we seem to do alright. We now have a SA/displ ratio of 17.8. and the boat has a prismatic coefficient of 0.6 which shows that her optimum relative speed is 1.25 or in our case about 6.6kts. The comparison to a more common CP of 0.54 shows that at this speed our resistance is about 15% less. In practice we have found that we frequently, average 6 kts on passage as indeed we did over 210 miles and even 6.8 kts over 70 miles. There is a penalty for a high CP, of course, and that is at low speeds and when going to weather with a blunt(er) nose.

6) Displacement ... is the real measure of the size of a boat and there is no doubt that weight provides the necessary inertia to counter the effects of the sea and to render them (more) benign. It also provides the volume to load her up for cruising. And of course, you get to pay for that in ultimate speed over and above traditional hull speed.

You certainly sell the attributes of the boat - I'll confess I've seen CW's and thought the hull shape reminded me of a ex fishing vessel we had a whale watching trip on in North Iceland - a couple of miles short of the artic circle - 6'C air temp before windchill from 30kts of wind straight off the N.Pole and the boat rolled like a pig. I've never seen my wife so ill! As such I had written them off.

From what you say, they would be good for year round sailing on the West Coast.

Can you sail from outside when the weather is good?

 

[Blueboatman]

Who beats in the trades? It's all down hill across the pond or beam on once sailing in the islands? that's the beauty of sailing in the Windward and Leeward islands

That is the theory ?
Gentlemen … can be capricious
But downwind, or cracked off from on the wind round etc , I have never sailed better than junk rig , ever!

 

[geem]

That is the theory ?
Gentlemen … can be capricious
But downwind, or cracked off from on the wind round etc , I have never sailed better than junk rig , ever!

Funny how you never see them racing inCowes?

 

[flaming]

I do think this is interesting.
I guess I was hoping that clever modern design would have addressed the issue: how can lighter more voluminous boats go to windward in disturbed seas? But from what everyone has said, that’s not really the case. The higher volume builders are making boats that are optimised for sunshine and light winds, but don’t go well to weather in anything other than smooth water. The high performance boats can win races, but probably by cracking off a bit and speeding up, and they require a lot of crew input.
It makes sense I guess. Physics is physics.

I think a lot of what is missed in these discussions is that every different style of boat does require a different style of sailing. And all have their plusses and minuses.

When driving a modern, wide sterned, chined, lightish, faily blunt of bow boat you should not expect it to react the same way to a chop as a narrow, heavy, fine bowed boat. Why would you?

You certainly can make a lot of modern designs slam quite violently going upwind into a chop. But you can also reduce this slamming down to almost none by changing your tactics. Specifically by swapping a bit of pointing for a bit of speed, and even more by a bit of active helming to bear away on the top of the worst waves, and point up when it's a bit flatter.

Remember though that the key to getting to windward is not pointing. It's VMG. Back when all boats were narrow and heavy VMG and point went hand in hand, as the boats barely accelerated when cracked off a bit. So being able to point high even when the waves were steep and without backs was key to good windward performance.
Sadly, a lot of commentators don't seem to be able to shake this mindset. If you're making a boat repeatedly slam going to windward, then you're not getting the most out of the boat. Instead of just angrily composing your next YBW "all modern boats are crap" post, bear away a bit, watch the speed build, the ride improve and the VMG shoot up.

Then bear away on to a reach and revel in the comfortable ride and easy control that the chine and twin rudders give you. And the same on a run. Whilst you watch that narrow traditional boat roll its guts out... Like I said, plusses and minuses to all aspects of boat design. Where the older designs are often referred to as "going upwind like they are on rails" they are notorious for rolling horribly downwind and requiring a lot of work from the helm.
Whereas modern designs might require more input upwind, but are faster and more directionally stable downwind. And roll less.

 

[johnalison]

Where the older designs are often referred to as "going upwind like they are on rails" they are notorious for rolling horribly downwind and requiring a lot of work from the helm.

Although generally true, there are, as always, exceptions. Some '70s boats such as the Arpege had a reputation for being uncomfortable off the wind but I never had any trouble with my Mystere, a smaller boat from the same generation. I could, in fact, take my hands off the helm when at full speed under spinnaker, providing that I had remembered to ease the backstay.

 

[DoubleEnder]

I think a lot of what is missed in these discussions is that every different style of boat does require a different style of sailing. And all have their plusses and minuses.

When driving a modern, wide sterned, chined, lightish, faily blunt of bow boat you should not expect it to react the same way to a chop as a narrow, heavy, fine bowed boat. Why would you?

You certainly can make a lot of modern designs slam quite violently going upwind into a chop. But you can also reduce this slamming down to almost none by changing your tactics. Specifically by swapping a bit of pointing for a bit of speed, and even more by a bit of active helming to bear away on the top of the worst waves, and point up when it's a bit flatter.

Remember though that the key to getting to windward is not pointing. It's VMG. Back when all boats were narrow and heavy VMG and point went hand in hand, as the boats barely accelerated when cracked off a bit. So being able to point high even when the waves were steep and without backs was key to good windward performance.
Sadly, a lot of commentators don't seem to be able to shake this mindset. If you're making a boat repeatedly slam going to windward, then you're not getting the most out of the boat. Instead of just angrily composing your next YBW "all modern boats are crap" post, bear away a bit, watch the speed build, the ride improve and the VMG shoot up.

Then bear away on to a reach and revel in the comfortable ride and easy control that the chine and twin rudders give you. And the same on a run. Whilst you watch that narrow traditional boat roll its guts out... Like I said, plusses and minuses to all aspects of boat design. Where the older designs are often referred to as "going upwind like they are on rails" they are notorious for rolling horribly downwind and requiring a lot of work from the helm.
Whereas modern designs might require more input upwind, but are faster and more directionally stable downwind. And roll less.

Yes, that's very well put.

 

[chrisedwards]

Funny how you never see them racing inCowes?

That is the theory ?
Gentlemen … can be capricious
But downwind, or cracked off from on the wind round etc , I have never sailed better than junk rig , ever!


You can speak for yourself Geem but not others. Junk rig boats have successfully raced in the Round the Island Race (I guess that covers your "in Cowes" area) for many years. Just Google it to see the evidence. I have raced in junk rigged boats in this race and they have torn through the fleet with a fair wind and often overtaken similar bermudan rigged boats on the wind. Things have moved on in the junk rig world, with cambered sails, split junk rigs etc.

Bravo Blueboatman. I bet you have a lot of experience with both pointy rigs and junk rigs - something which most commentators on the junk rig lack.

..."cracked off from the wind ...I have never sailed better than junk rig, ever!" Agree wholeheartedly

In case thread drift is an issue, Blondie Hasler said he would choose a junk rig to beat of a lee shore in a gale. I'm not going to argue with him.

 

[chrisedwards]

You can speak for yourself Geem but not for others. Junk rigged boats have successfully raced in the Round the Island Race for many years - just google it to see the evidence. I have raced junk rigged boats in this race and they have torn through the fleet with a following wind and often overtaken similar Bermudan boats on the wind. Things have moved on in the junk rig world - cambered panels, split rigs...

Bravo Blueboatman - I bet you have loads of experience with both pointy and junk rigs - something lacking in most commentators of the junk rig.

"...cracked off from the wind I have never sailed better than junk rig... never..." Agree wholeheartedly

In case of thread drift Blondie Hasler once said he would choose a junk rig to beat off a lee shore in a gale. That means a lot to me.

 

[geem]

You can speak for yourself Geem but not for others. Junk rigged boats have successfully raced in the Round the Island Race for many years - just google it to see the evidence. I have raced junk rigged boats in this race and they have torn through the fleet with a following wind and often overtaken similar Bermudan boats on the wind. Things have moved on in the junk rig world - cambered panels, split rigs...

Bravo Blueboatman - I bet you have loads of experience with both pointy and junk rigs - something lacking in most commentators of the junk rig.

"...cracked off from the wind I have never sailed better than junk rig... never..." Agree wholeheartedly

In case of thread drift Blondie Hasler once said he would choose a junk rig to beat off a lee shore in a gale. That means a lot to me.

Show us where a junk rigged boat out performed a Bermudan sloop rigged boat of the same class in the Round the Island race. I and I am sure other would generally be interested.
Having seen the Jester copy with her junk rig last week in Baiona I am genuinely interested. That boat didn't lend itself to any other rig. Trying to hoist a jib and recover it on a folkboat in any sea would be extremely difficult. I can see how the single sail junk rig has its advantages for easy if handling and downwind performance. I am yet to be convinced of its upwind ability but happy to be proven wrong

 

[Laminar Flow]

You certainly sell the attributes of the boat - I'll confess I've seen CW's and thought the hull shape reminded me of a ex fishing vessel we had a whale watching trip on in North Iceland - a couple of miles short of the artic circle - 6'C air temp before windchill from 30kts of wind straight off the N.Pole and the boat rolled like a pig. I've never seen my wife so ill! As such I had written them off.

From what you say, they would be good for year round sailing on the West Coast.

Can you sail from outside when the weather is good?

When comparing hull shapes of various motorsailers, particularly of the more traditional variants, you will find that many have rather round bilges with a fair degree of slack providing little in the way of roll resistance. By comparison, the CW hull has more of a V-section with a much sharper turn at the outer bilge, giving them a bit more of a shoulder to lean on and stability. Additionally, they have very broad, buoyant cruiser stern that carries the beam well aft (there are disadvantages to this, as when heeled much over 20 degr she'll suck up a nasty quarter wave).

The standard model has a very short rig and a low SA/Dipl ratio, barely more than a Mobo with steadying sail. Our main mast is a full 6' taller and heavier, this increases the radius of gyration and inertia and slows down the roll. Owners who replaced their old, heavy engine with a much lighter, modern one reported the same effect.

Our SA is more than twice that of the standard model and this will stabilize any boat, particularly on the wind. Downwind, I have found that it pays to keep her going as fast as possible as it is then that our long keel, much as the low aspect anti-roll fins on ships, develops its greatest stabilizing effect. Compared to some I have sailed on, both traditional and modern, I find her surprisingly roll resistant.

On the wind sailing boats are inherently stable and many boats can be made to run "as if on rails" on this point of sail, both traditional and modern. What interests me much more are boats that can do this when off the wind and in this respect our hull (with my modifications) seems to manage quite well. At speed and under spinnaker we seem to need not more than 3 degr. rudder angle, leisurely applied by our geriatric WP, to counter the effects of a pronounced quartering sea. We recently sailed on a friend's short keel boat and my wife, who is our chief helmsman, specifically commented on how much more attention this boat needed under the same aspect.

Yes, we can steer from the cockpit with a tiller, though we rarely do so in practice as Arnold our electronic serf takes over as soon as we are in open water and leaves us free to sit in the dry foredeck well and watch the world go by.
She may not be perfect, but she suits us perfectly.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Show us where a junk rigged boat out performed a Bermudan sloop rigged boat of the same class in the Round the Island race. I and I am sure other would generally be interested.
Having seen the Jester copy with her junk rig last week in Baiona I am genuinely interested. That boat didn't lend itself to any other rig. Trying to hoist a jib and recover it on a folkboat in any sea would be extremely difficult. I can see how the single sail junk rig has its advantages for easy if handling and downwind performance. I am yet to be convinced of its upwind ability but happy to be proven wrong

I must say that I too have serious doubts about the racing provenance of the junk rig, even though I have a soft spot for unusual boats and rigs. I have no question about their prowess downwind compared to pointy shapes, but if they were so formidable to weather I'm sure Flaming would be having himself one. Fact is: even unstayed, all those battens, the fatter mast, sheetlets, euphores, lazy jacks, parrels and down hauls add up to considerable weight, reducing stability and the already modest lift/drag ratio. A freestanding spar in the apex of the bow, no matter how light, will induce a serious pitching moment and further impede performance. I know that, because during the freestanding rig craze a few years back we considered such an arrangement with profiled masts.

I too have, on occasion, sailed past other boats with our stumpy ketch, still don't make us a racer, though.

 

[Beneteau381]

I just did a little trip on a friend’s boat. A short beat then a beam reach then a broad reach starting with about 20kts built to steady 25/26. About 40 miles. Two reefs at one point.
The boat is old style heavy long keel. It was fine, went fast and was comfortable in short choppy sea (shallow water and strong tide). Pretty dry on deck most of the time.
My own boat is also long keel but much older (1930s design) built of wood with low freeboard and narrow beam. We would have been very very wet in the same conditions.
I am curious to know what these conditions would be like in a very modern design with wide beam, chine hull, lots of form stability and more volume.
It’s a genuine question, I’m not interested in old versus new heavy versus light all that argy bargy. Not which is ‘better.’ Just really what’s it like to sail one of those style of boats, in that sort of weather, in cruising mode? Is it fast and fun or bouncy and bangy? We were pitching and rolling a fair bit but that was expected and the motion was generally not abrupt….I have sailed on more modern boats but not in those conditions.
Clearly these modern designs can cope, but what’s the experience like for a middle aged (ahem) sailor not a racer?

My Beneteau 381 would revel in those conditions with the wind on the beam. Reefed right down

 

[dunedin]

To give a different perspective on this debate, perhaps worth a read of the thread on the nightmares of handling a long keel yacht in marinas …….. Manoeuvring long keel sailboat out of birth in wind - Any tips?

Even though we spent more nights on the anchor than on pontoons over the past 2 years, Imam happy to own a modern boat that handles predictably and relatively safely in harbours when needed - which most of us do more often than sail 100 miles upwind in F5-6.

Personally I would never buy an old style long keel boat for this reason. And without this we still seem to go to windward faster than most similar sized boats we see, even when the breeze is up.

 

[DoubleEnder]

To give a different perspective on this debate, perhaps worth a read of the thread on the nightmares of handling a long keel yacht in marinas …….. Manoeuvring long keel sailboat out of birth in wind - Any tips?

Even though we spent more nights on the anchor than on pontoons over the past 2 years, Imam happy to own a modern boat that handles predictably and relatively safely in harbours when needed - which most of us do more often than sail 100 miles upwind in F5-6.

Personally I would never buy an old style long keel boat for this reason. And without this we still seem to go to windward faster than most similar sized boats we see, even when the breeze is up.

It’s a fair point. My long keeled boat is a handful in a marina, though we do generally manage. Other more modern designs are easier to handle, I know.
However, the way the boat sails is whats important to me, and also the way it feels and looks. Even the best close quarters handling isn’t going to bring real joy

 

[Laminar Flow]

To give a different perspective on this debate, perhaps worth a read of the thread on the nightmares of handling a long keel yacht in marinas …….. Manoeuvring long keel sailboat out of birth in wind - Any tips?

Even though we spent more nights on the anchor than on pontoons over the past 2 years, Imam happy to own a modern boat that handles predictably and relatively safely in harbours when needed - which most of us do more often than sail 100 miles upwind in F5-6.

Personally I would never buy an old style long keel boat for this reason. And without this we still seem to go to windward faster than most similar sized boats we see, even when the breeze is up.

Unless you you are talking about maneuvering in a F5/6 I'm not sure of the relevancy. Besides our long keel maneuvers just fine in port and in reverse, what's more, can be successfully steered in reverse. Due to a six foot bow sprit we pretty much always back her into a slip. You are also much less likely to be blown off with a long keel at slow speed or when stopped. Apparently not all long keels are the same and I do not even have a particular attachment to them ,one way or another; my last boat had a lifting keel and twin rudders.

As I previously said: a lot of bollocks is written by both sides. I would like to point out that there are plenty of other underwater configurations to provide lift to weather and propensity to slamming has nothing to do with the type of lateral plane.

 

[dom]

I do love these threads

Where we park reality on an unused mooring somewhere

And dream of hauling in that pounding IMOCA 60 as the wind and seas slowly build

Giving him/her a cheery wave from our 1970s wonder as we sail serenely past.