fireball
Well-Known Member
I said nothing about draft ...
Sail vs power colreg situation
- Thread starter maxcampbell
- Start date
I said nothing about draft ...
kashurst
Well-Known Member
Hi Chrusty - col regs DO apply on rivers, and this video and the answers illuminate very clearly the different interpretations and understanding of the col regs in a confined space. Regarding the overtaking situation - the stand on vessel is required to hold course -if its the dinghy he clearly cannot hold his course, he will have to tack sooner or later.
It would help everyone if one of the magazines could get an professional opinion on this event as it is not uncommon.
Judging by some of the posts it is also clear that some dinghy sailors are completely unaware just what a mobo can and can't do at slow speeds. A tender with an outboard is completely different to 10 tons of grp and engine.
It would help everyone if one of the magazines could get an professional opinion on this event as it is not uncommon.
Judging by some of the posts it is also clear that some dinghy sailors are completely unaware just what a mobo can and can't do at slow speeds. A tender with an outboard is completely different to 10 tons of grp and engine.
Bru
Well-Known Member
Altogether now ... oh no they don't!
Well, not necessarily anyway
If I read aright, this incident took place on the Broads and the Broads Navigation Bylaws Section 5 states that the Collision Regulations do not apply to the waters covered by the said bylaws
Edit ...
A cursory glance at the said bylaws suggests they don't differ significantly from Colregs anyway
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lw395
Well-Known Member
http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdf
The rules are similar but some interesting differences on British Waterways water.
C
Chrusty 1
Guest
Not only but also..........The first line says
http://www.boatingsafety.com/colregs.htm
Basically, the "COLREGS" can apply, if the river has a direct access to the sea for sea going vessels. So that would exempt many canals and rivers, and parts of the broads, and also where local byelaws and or regulations supersede the "COLREGS". If it was me, I would have waited on the opposite side of the river to that of the motor boat, until it had passed by, but it wasn't and he didn't, but so what, there was no collision, and a miss is as good as a Devon mile in my book. Like I said, a lot of waffle about a non event.
Might have, could have, don't come into it.
peterb
Well-Known Member
But the Byelaws also specify a set of rules not unlike Colregs. In particular, Byelaw 23(1)(a) says that 'Subject to the requirements of Byelaw 15 [the overtaking rule] the master of a power-driven vessel underway shall keep his vessel out of the way of a sailing vessel.' Not much ambiguity there, but I didn't see much attempt to obey it in the video.
lw395
Well-Known Member
Not only but also..........The first line says
http://www.boatingsafety.com/colregs.htm
Basically, the "COLREGS" can apply, if the river has a direct access to the sea for sea going vessels. So that would exempt many canals and rivers, and parts of the broads, and also where local byelaws and or regulations supersede the "COLREGS". If it was me, I would have waited on the opposite side of the river to that of the motor boat, until it had passed by, but it wasn't and he didn't, but so what, there was no collision, and a miss is as good as a Devon mile in my book. Like I said, a lot of waffle about a non event.
Might have, could have, don't come into it.
+1
It's much more interesting when you get about a dozen dinghies racing close together on a river like that, and a lock-full of motor cruisers comes through.
2 boat situations are way too simple!
T
timbartlett
Guest
I'm afraid you don't have quite as much world-wide support as you seem to think. The colregs are subject to constant analysis and regular updates -- as well as the occasional major rewrite. A few years ago, one nation (I think it was Italy, but I wouldn't swear to it) proposed exactly the kind of "might is right" rule that you seem to be in favour of. It was overwhelmingly rejected as unworkable.
I'm sorry, but it wasn't. You wrote "there are only a very small number who actual try to stand on, possibly in the misconception that they have to." The word "misconception" suggests to me that you believe that standing on is not compulsory. But unless Rule 17 has been deleted (which it hasn't) then standing on is compulsory: it is just as much an obligation as keeping a proper lookout, keeping clear of a vessel that you are overtaking, or displaying the right lights at night.
Can you identify a single recorded instance of anyone, in any pleasure craft, colliding with a ship because he mistakenly thought the collision regulations required him to do so? I've heard of collisions caused by misguided efforts to keep clear of a vessel that was already giving way, but never of one caused by anyone deliberatetly "standing on to the death"
Time and time again, however, we hear of ships watchkeepers complaining about yotties who don't know the rules. Almost every professional with whom I have discussed this would much prefer it if yotties behaved in a consistent, predictable fashion in accordance with the rules -- rather than making them up as they go along.
C
Chrusty 1
Guest
DAKA
Well-Known Member
you make a very good argument Tim, again you have me almost won over BUT I,m afraid this is one instance where theory is over whelmed by human nature and just as most people are apprehensive when they jump out of an aeroplane with a parachute , the vast majority of leisure sailors are apprehensive about standing on the big fast moving boats.
You may be able to persuade us here or in a classroom but out at sea human nature will win most of the time which makes the theory, theory and the practice reality.
T
timbartlett
Guest
I really don't understand your objection to obeying the rules, or your apparently sincere belief that they are all out to get you.
I presume, when you are driving, you accept that green traffic lights at cross roads mean "go": you do not sit there indefinitely convinced that the driver of the truck that is approaching from your right will decide to ignore all his training and the risk to his livelihood by jumping the red light just to hit you?
I presume you are content to drive along ordinary two-lane roads, reasonably confident that the approaching bus is unlikely to decide that today would be a good day to try driving on the right?
And I'm guessing that when you are going round a roundabout, you don't stop at every exit "out of courtesy" to let waiting vehicles onto the roundabout?
So -- assuming I'm right -- what is different about the professionals who drive ships according to a single, world-wide code of behaviour. Why don't you trust their professionalism and respect for the rules?
Not arguing: I genuinely don't understand and am curious to know.
Fire99
Well-Known Member
Nobody 'Gives Way'.. One vessel is the Stand-on Vessel.
Also EVERY boat is responsible in avoiding a collision, regardless of who is the Stand-On Vessel.
The regs require a hint of common sense and not 100% pig-headedness.
Also EVERY boat is responsible in avoiding a collision, regardless of who is the Stand-On Vessel.
The regs require a hint of common sense and not 100% pig-headedness.
onesea
Well-Known Member
Actually YES if in doubt I think most of us would as pedestrians, bike riders or drivers... I want to atleast believe they have intention of stopping before I pull out/ walk. They might not of seen the lights change, they might not have seen you, they might be jumping the lights. You might not wait for them to stop but you will check they are slowing...
Then I do not assume a vessel passing clear is going to alter course just to come chasing after me... I will still be aware he might not of seen me and have reason to alter towards me...
No but I do watch for cars that might try and jump in ahead and be ready to take action, have an escape route.
They are professionals trained to various standards working at various levels of stress and fatigue. Often meeting small boats in busy waterways they might not be familiar without to much room to manoeuvre.
I am certain they would rather pleasure boats kept out of there way as long as they made there intentions clear early on...
I hope this helps explain from another point of view...
+1 but far less than 100% pig-headedness IMO.
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pteron
Well-Known Member
Suggest you re-read your copy of the IRPCS. It is full of 'give way' requirements.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
Yes, by adhering to the rules.
RichardS
N/A
I guess you mean that nobody has "Right of Way". Sort of the opposite of "Give Way".
Richard
LePacha
Well-Known Member
Well, for me, if overtaken, the stand on vessel should keep its course. So tacking alters its course, and there is already a fault.
But bottom line, in this kind of case, is rule 2 from Colregs (and this is also in answers to recent previous posts). It is not because you're the stand on vessel that you should not try to avoid collision. If a collision happens, and if you could have prevented it, then you're clearly guilty.
So in my opinion, the issue lies here with the dingie sailor. Even if the mobo didn't try to take any action and is also guilty to some extent. But it could be the case that he was suprised by the manoeuvre of the dingie in all honesty.
And this is from a yachtie point of view....
But bottom line, in this kind of case, is rule 2 from Colregs (and this is also in answers to recent previous posts). It is not because you're the stand on vessel that you should not try to avoid collision. If a collision happens, and if you could have prevented it, then you're clearly guilty.
colregs said:
So in my opinion, the issue lies here with the dingie sailor. Even if the mobo didn't try to take any action and is also guilty to some extent. But it could be the case that he was suprised by the manoeuvre of the dingie in all honesty.
And this is from a yachtie point of view....
LePacha
Well-Known Member
Well, comparing boats to cars might work for mobos (and even there, only to some extent), but that's about it. It is a little bit more complex. I don't say harder to "drive", but complex. And if you didn't have roads, but just a full area where everybody could drive "freely", then you would have the same issues. No trafic lights out there for us...
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Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Another fantastic ColReg thread which once again shows that everyone has their own, unshakeable opinion on what is correct. All at odds with one another.
It's taken 2 days to disagree on this simple non-incident. Something that the helms of both boats had 20 seconds to agree on, without communication.
As others have said. It didn't happen. No-one was hurt, no boat was damaged.
The dinghy sailor would have lost much less time and boat speed by being gentlemanly and tacking early instead of holding onto his perceived status.
The videographer deserves to be prosecuted for befouling the calm peace of the river with his disgusting language
It's taken 2 days to disagree on this simple non-incident. Something that the helms of both boats had 20 seconds to agree on, without communication.
As others have said. It didn't happen. No-one was hurt, no boat was damaged.
The dinghy sailor would have lost much less time and boat speed by being gentlemanly and tacking early instead of holding onto his perceived status.
The videographer deserves to be prosecuted for befouling the calm peace of the river with his disgusting language
lotusman
Well-Known Member
I think there is something in the analogy with road use.
Huge reduction in safety when one user deviates from accepted rules and waives a pedestrian accross or invites another driver to take an unusual priority.
Being at sea is a bit like driving or walking through a supermarket car park - as a driver you know the rules and should respect the vulnerability of pedestrians, and possibly that they lack knowledge of the complexities of driving a vehicle.
Huge reduction in safety when one user deviates from accepted rules and waives a pedestrian accross or invites another driver to take an unusual priority.
Being at sea is a bit like driving or walking through a supermarket car park - as a driver you know the rules and should respect the vulnerability of pedestrians, and possibly that they lack knowledge of the complexities of driving a vehicle.