Sail setting/tightness Help

[Samosun]

I haven't had my boat for long and have now taken it out a couple of times with both sails up. However I cannot seem to get adequate tension on the mainsail. The boat is only 22' and there are no winches available to apply more force to the halyard. TBH i'd be worried that any more force would break something, I'm a strong 90kg guy and it goes up fine to a point, then refuses to go up the last 100mm. There is space at the top of the mast but no more than 150mm. Maybe I just need more force?

I've done a bit of research and I see some boats use a 'downhaul', my main has no specific eyelet for one but i could use a reefing hole. If I pull down on the sail it sits and fills very well but then one of the runners/carriages (not sure the correct name) come out of the opening in the mast slot and the bottom of the sail is saggy.

It feels like the boom needs to come down to solve the problem but there are no features to allow this.

I should have taken some pictures over the weekend but was having too much fun so forgot. If anyone can give some advice i'd be very grateful. If it's a case of needing photos I can get some next weekend when I'm out again (weather permitting)

Thanks!

 

[[70521]]

Does the main go up a slot in the mast? If so when was the slot last cleaned?

 

[Thistle]

Is there anything which prevents the halyard running over the sheaves at the masthead or exiting at the mast foot?
As suggested above, is the mast track clear?
Is there a black band (measuring band) at the masthead? Does the head of the sail reach this?
Can the luff be tensioned by pulling the gooseneck down after raising the sail?
Is a gate missing where the slides go into the mast? (To prevent them coming out of the slot when the sail is up.)
Is there a reefing point about a foot up from the boom? This is intended as a "flattener" reef but could be used for a downhaul / Cunningham.

Given the forces involved when sailing, I'm tempted to suggest that if you can break any part of the sail raising system by hand, that bit of the system wasn't up to the job and it's better to break it raising the sail than have it break while sailing.

 

[Poignard]

if there is 150mm between the head of the sail and the masthead that is probably about as far as you can reasonably expect it to go without the headboard of the sail fouling the topping lift block.

Have you had a look at the top of the track using binoculars to see if there is a stop to prevent the top slide going any further up? If there is, and there is no provision to pull the boom down (as there is on my boat), the luff of your sail is too long. If that is the case, and to get a permanent solution, you would have to get the sail altered.

 

[Samosun]

Thanks for your advcie!

Sandy - Yes it does, I have no idea when/if it's been cleaned. I got the boat very cheap and have no history with it at all. I need to get the mast down at some point to fix the masthead light and check the rigging (which i'm planning on swapping for Dyneema at some point)

Thistle - As above I am unaware of what the very top of the mast is like but the rest of the sliders go up easy enough. There is every chance there is something physically stopping it near the top. That is what it feels like. That said there is no visible stop or black band around the top of the mast. The gooseneck cannot be moved down without drilling another hole in the track below it. It's a pretty simple arrangement and just has a split pin holding it from falling lower. Looks like it's been that way for a long time.

There is no gate in the slot, actually I've just been researching these as it's a real pain. The slot is about 250mm from the boom so all but two of the sliders sit below the slot. this makes raising it a pain. I've found some pretty good solutions online, i'm an engineer by trade so can just fabricate something with relative ease.
The first reefing point is pretty high, maybe 1m from memory, I considered doing this but it seems like a half measure rather than fixing the route problem. I think you have a point about the forces, although I would have thought most of the forces while sailing where on the slots and sliders rather than vertically on the halyard? Maybe i'm wrong though. I may try getting some mechanical advantage with some blocks/pulleys.

Poignard - I will get some good binoculars and check. If all else fails I think like you say I will just remove the top 100mm of the sail (or try it myself), This seems like the simplest fix.

 

[bobgarrett]

Get a sail slide - maybe off your current sail if they unclip. Slot it in the mast groove above the sail. Tie it with a little cord to the main halyard. Tie another long cord to it so it can be pulled down. Now hoist it up and see how far up the mast it goes.
That might narrow down the problem.

 

[Elbows]

My 23' Pageant mainsail has the same problem and it's because the luff bolt rope has shrunk. It's only sewn in at the top and bottom so I'm going to unpick the thread at the bottom, put some tension on the sail so that the rope slides up a few inches and resew it.

It's a common problem with old sails so worth checking for.

 

[Spyro]

For years my mainsail was a pig to raise. I discovered when my mast was down over the winter the main halyard sheave has disintegrated and the halyard was just running over the spindle. I replaced it and can't believe how easily it now goes up. It wasn't obvious from the deck as the sheave is half inside the masthead cap.

 

[johnalison]

This might be an egg-sucking question but are you swigging the halyard effectively? I'm only a 10-stone weakling but I would easily be able to tighten a halyard harder than someone who is merely pulling on it.

 

[Samosun]

Bobgarrett - Thanks that is a good idea. I will try that before dropping the mast.

Elbows - The sail is pretty old so this could be the case. before i modify the sail I will take it home and spread it out to see if it seems to have shrunken. How did you notice this? did the fabric just seem a little lose/bunched up?

Spyro - I hope it's not this but if i go as far as dropping the mast this year i guess i'll find out....It does go up ok until the last little bit so hopefully it's not this.

Johnalison - Not an 'egg-sucking' question. I had to look up what swigging was I have seem people do this on much bigger boats and it never crossed my mind to try it. I have a feeling it won't solve the issue but it's definitely worth a shot! I was going to set up some pulleys to increase my mechanical advantage but this would be much simpler.

Thank you all for your advice. This gives me a lot of options to try to solve the problem. I'll check back in with a solution in case anyone is reading this in the future and has the same issue.

 

[Elbows]

Elbows - The sail is pretty old so this could be the case. before i modify the sail I will take it home and spread it out to see if it seems to have shrunken. How did you notice this? did the fabric just seem a little lose/bunched up?

Yes. The luff rope was obviously tight as the front edge of the sail was rigid, but it was impossible to pull out the horizontal wrinkles even using a winch. It's very hard to judge how much the rope has shrunk but I'd guess it's at least 50mm too short, maybe a fair bit more.

Probably best to check with it hoisted on the boat if possible as it's the easiest way to tension it.

 

[Old Harry]

Yes. The luff rope was obviously tight as the front edge of the sail was rigid, but it was impossible to pull out the horizontal wrinkles even using a winch. It's very hard to judge how much the rope has shrunk but I'd guess it's at least 50mm too short, maybe a fair bit more.

Probably best to check with it hoisted on the boat if possible as it's the easiest way to tension it.

Pix would assist in the correct suggestions to sort the issue

 

[Don107]

Possibly a silly question but have you released the boom vang before hoisting the main sail

Regards Don

 

[Pye_End]

Elbows - The sail is pretty old so this could be the case. before i modify the sail I will take it home and spread it out to see if it seems to have shrunken. How did you notice this? did the fabric just seem a little lose/bunched up?

Sounds like a change in luff rope would be in order. They do stiffen up over time. With winches available it is less noticeable as you have plenty more force on offer.

 

[alahol2]

The gooseneck cannot be moved down without drilling another hole in the track below it. It's a pretty simple arrangement and just has a split pin holding it from falling lower. Looks like it's been that way for a long time.

Maybe the split pin is only there to 'park' the boom. Hoist the main, remove split pin, use downhaul to pull boom down track and tighten luff.
Vice versa when dropping main.

?

 

[Elbows]

Sounds like a change in luff rope would be in order. They do stiffen up over time. With winches available it is less noticeable as you have plenty more force on offer.

If that does turn out to be the problem it's not necessary to replace the bolt rope. Just unpick the stitching attaching the bottom end of the rope to the sail, tension the sail a bit to pull the end of the rope upwards, and then restitch it to the sail in the new position.

For myself I'm wondering whether it's necessary to have a bolt rope at all if it's got sliders. I've been told that it's there to prevent over-tensioning of the sail fabric, however that only works when the sail isn't reefed. As soon as you put in a reef the bottom of the rope is no longer anchored and all the tension is being applied to the sail fabric anyway. If it doesn't matter when reefed, why would it matter when not reefed? Could it be that the bolt rope is just a hangover from when it was the normal way of attaching the sail to the mast? It would be interesting to hear from somebody who's knowledgable about the subject.

 

[Daydream believer]

How big is the knot at the top holding the halyard shackle? Is it binding on the pulley & you have actually reached the limit of the halyard hoist?. If so, remove the shackle & knot & put the halyard straight through the hole on the top of the sail. Tie a stopper knot ( if the hole is big buy a plastic ball & pass the halyard through that) so that the halyard will not pull back through. That way you get maxm hoist on the sail.

One thing that can happen is that the top slider can tilt inside the groove & after a few years it can form notches in the inside of the mast groove. So as you get to the top the slider forms a jamming action.This can be made worse because the halyard is beginning to pull the sail in towards the mast block & pushing the slider inwards.

Drop the sail & take the top slider out of the track & try hoisting again. This will tell you if the problem is the sail slug in the track.

 

[William_H]

Just one comment regarding what OP said. All the load must be on the halyard and attach at the goose neck. Luff should be stretched tight. The sliders should take no load. This becomes even more important when reefed. I would suggest OP lower the mast and check at the halyard. Try raising the main sail up the mast with mast down. Problem should soon become apparent. ol'will

 

[Daydream believer]

and check the rigging (which i'm planning on swapping for Dyneema at some point)
.

Why?

 

[Stemar]

Why indeed.

Unless it's a serious performance boat, and it doesn't sound like it, dyneema is a waste of money. It would allow you to use thinner lines, but they'll only cut into your hands. You want lines - halyards and sheets - to be sized for comfortable handling, and anything that's comfortable to hold will be more than strong enough.