Sandyman
Well-Known Member
Have to agree. Steel it is. Have never understood peoples objections to owning a steel boat.
We have non or few of the problems which I daily see being repaired on GRP & wooden boats.
'Safe' Boats
- Thread starter Fire99
- Start date
Have to agree. Steel it is. Have never understood peoples objections to owning a steel boat.
We have non or few of the problems which I daily see being repaired on GRP & wooden boats.
prv
Well-Known Member
Fear of rust (or rather, of the maintenance necessary to prevent it).
The fact that a lot of steel boats are ugly. (Not a failing of the material per se - in fact more due to its benefits making it attractive to self-builders with limited skills and budgets.) Even though non-ugly boats can be and are built, in a lot of people's minds steel = ugly.
Personally if I were long-term cruising I'd be very happy to have a steel boat.
Pete
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AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Well, there is the down-side that steel inevitably and predictably degrades with time. Elemental iron just isn't stable under the conditions at the Earth's surface. One of our ships was retired because of deterioration of the steel plate - and it wasn't rust, it was some other form of failure that caused the plates to sort of delaminate after many years pounding. But for most leisure craft, rust will inevitably "get" a steel hulled yacht sooner or later. There will be a failure of the protective coating somewhere inaccessible and out of sight... I daresay constant vigilance might put off the inevitable for a long time, but sooner or later vigilance will fail.
I'd agree steel is the ideal material for long distance cruising, especially if going off the beaten track. Strong and capable of being repaired almost anywhere are good characteristics. Also, if I were going into ice-bound waters, I wouldn't consider GRP - the constant abrasion and hard knocks would destroy it eventually.
JimC
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone has mentioned unsinkableness. I should think an unsinkable boat would have some benefits in terms of safety, e.g. Sadlers and Etaps.
snooks
Well-Known Member
It's no good having an unsinkable boat if it sails like a drunk at the end of a Friday night.
I think any boat that can take the weather you are likely to go out in, or get caught out in is "safe". If she's not, then you should think long and hard about whether you really want to go sailing in those conditions. So it's not just about the boat, it's about you as well. The safest boat in the hands of a fool ceases to be a safe boat the minute they set sail.
So taking it as read that you are safe, and you don't overload her etc etc, it's then about the design.
Some might say (myself included) that the beam should be around the middle, but there are plenty of examples of boats that have sailed around the world with the max beam carried all the way to the transom (open 60s, Volvo 70s etc) but these are primarily built for speed not comfort.
If you want a comfortable safe boat, directional stability is a good starting point, be that long keel, long fin with skeg (full or 3/4 or 1/2), hull shape can also help. V or U sections under water up the front (prevents slamming), beam in the middle, a narrower under water stern sections prevents spinning out. These tend to be older, dare I say proven, designs that were built to sail at the expense of the interior volume.
That's not to say "modern boats" today aren't safe, they are. But give me the choice of being out in a blow in a modern 32 footer, or our older (sinkable) Sadler 32 then I'd choose the Sadler.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Well on that score, that's another 'feature' to leave out.
I'm struggling with this 'safe boat' definition now.
OK, someone tell me, by design, a mono-hull cruiser that is NOT safe to cross the Ocean (with an average Skipper, not Knox Johnston or Ellen Macarthur)?
I believe a certain owner of a Huzzar 30 might put his vessel into this catagory.......
alant
Well-Known Member
Exactly!
If a boat cannot claw off a lee shore, it shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place!
Ability to cross an Ocean? - They did that in boats about the size of a barrel (& similar shape), so thats not a factor.
At the end of the day, apart from Hurricane conditions, which just happen whilst passing the Needles etc, a safe boat is one which suits the experience & capability of the skipper/crew, in getting them from A to B, without loss.
This could be anything from a mirror dinghy to the mightiest steel vessel. Its perception of conditions by whosoever is sailing it. Your nice sailing weather is another man's (womans) nightmare & boats are the same.
mikeinkwazi
Well-Known Member
meow!
Sailed trimarans since '73. Been in Biscay F9's a few times, seemed safe enough! Now sailing a heavy Gaff Cutter and yet to find out?
Sailed trimarans since '73. Been in Biscay F9's a few times, seemed safe enough! Now sailing a heavy Gaff Cutter and yet to find out?
JimC
Well-Known Member
Can you explain "spinning out" means please.
Thanks
snooks
Well-Known Member
Spinning out, is another term for rounding up
The boat gets caught by a gust with too much sail up the boat heels over more and it moves the centre of effort further away from the centre of lateral resistance so the leverage is greater. Imagine the CoE to be at the base of the first spreader, sailing normally it a little to leeward of the middle of the keel, as the boat heels, that point moves further away from the middle of the keel
At the same time as she heels the extra bouyancy lifts the top section of the rudder out of the water, so she looses grip at the stern. Combine this loss of grip with the movement of the CoE and the boat swings up to windward.
It doesn't just happen on fat bummed boats, any fin keeler, if hit by too much wind, will round up.
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JimC
Well-Known Member
I guess you meant it does not just happen on fat bummed boats? Thanks for the explanation. Personally I've never hung onto sail or driven a boat along at such a steep angle of heel as the one in the video. My boat is a Hunter Channel 31 and she has quite a wide stern but not as wide as some. I normally sail holding the tiller pretty much dead centre and it stays there till the angle of heel reaches about 20 degrees beyond which I'm moving the tiller progressively over to windward to maintain course. It's obvious the canted rudder must be slowing the boat so I haul down hard on the flattening reef to lessen the heel. If it gets to the point when I'm feathering the main in the gusts I reef: so I never sail at more than about 20 degrees of heel and have never spun out / rounded up. From the video it doesn't look a very comfortable event, but not dangerous I would think?
snooks
Well-Known Member
Corrected, yep it doesn't have to be a fat bummed boat.
I just missed the start of the spin. It wasn't much fun up there, and it's the closest I've felt to going over the side, mainly because I was holding a blooming video camera!
We'd been powering along well, all in control, so I took the opportunity to get some video. Just as I got to the bow and started filming we came out of a gap between the lee of two Swedish islands. Wham over on our ear, and the clew flapping over my head.
I don't like taking risks at work, it's not worth it, and at the time I didn't think I was taking a risk. If I knew what was going to happen I wouldn't have done it, but it wouldn't put me off doing it again. We did have 40 knots of breeze at times during that trip!
It wasn't dangerous for anyone or the boat, it was a bit scary for me, but worse things have happened since
Fire99
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the replies all. Some interesting info.
Regarding 'Spinning Out' We deliberately spun (or rounded up) a Bavaria 36 to show how the boat would react. We had the boat heavily heeled (obviously too heavily in normal situations) with the helm gradually going further and further to 'lock' and then obviously the boat finally rounded up.
Not somthing we would do as a matter of course but me and some fireman friends wanted to see the effects of over-canvassing a boat and also showing that the boat wouldn't fall over.
Regarding 'Safe' boats. Just as a wild example. Am I right the original Hunter 19 (pre Europa model) didn't have a self draining cockpit? That would surely 'dampen' a voyage in heavy weather.
Regarding 'Spinning Out' We deliberately spun (or rounded up) a Bavaria 36 to show how the boat would react. We had the boat heavily heeled (obviously too heavily in normal situations) with the helm gradually going further and further to 'lock' and then obviously the boat finally rounded up.
Not somthing we would do as a matter of course but me and some fireman friends wanted to see the effects of over-canvassing a boat and also showing that the boat wouldn't fall over.
Regarding 'Safe' boats. Just as a wild example. Am I right the original Hunter 19 (pre Europa model) didn't have a self draining cockpit? That would surely 'dampen' a voyage in heavy weather.
alant
Well-Known Member
Rounding up is not difficult in a Bavaria.
Even with a couple of reefs in the main, a crew needed to be constantly dedicated to dump the mainsheet, before T-boning anything within spitting distance.
Sailed lots of them on corporate charters, varying sizes, but all seemed to be prone to it.
JimC
Well-Known Member
In spite of my comparatively restrained manner of sailing I can achieve speeds of between 6 and 7 knots on most points of sail. I wonder if sailing boats in a more extreme way really does get that much more speed out of them. The offset drive from the canted sailplan is trying to slew the hull as Snooks has explained, the rudder is trying to fight this and is acting as a brake, and the keel is not presenting as much vertical area and is operating in shallower water - both of which will reduce its effectiveness.
Fire99
Well-Known Member
It wasn't desperately hard to be honest. But it was good to understand the limits of that particular yacht. My little Snappie is harder to round up than the Bavaria, to be honest. (But she does have a very deep rudder) (Well relatively anyway.
Babylon
Well-Known Member
One ear bad, two ears good.
I don't think so.
Crossing from Southampton water to Cowes last weekend in near gale conditions (F6 gusting F8), we were fine-reaching with two reefs in the main and just the stays'l up, and were sailing relatively upright. We maintained 6.0kts plus and maxed at 8.0kts - which is a personal record, and not bad for a 27ft long heavy displacement long-keeler!
Following on our tail were a number of larger sloops, all gung-ho with full or near-full sailplans, and therefore right over on their ears as they crossed right over the Bramble Bank. They paced us but at no stage got any closer.
It couldn't have been due to our clean bottom or our new feathering prop, could it?
I don't think so.
Crossing from Southampton water to Cowes last weekend in near gale conditions (F6 gusting F8), we were fine-reaching with two reefs in the main and just the stays'l up, and were sailing relatively upright. We maintained 6.0kts plus and maxed at 8.0kts - which is a personal record, and not bad for a 27ft long heavy displacement long-keeler!
Following on our tail were a number of larger sloops, all gung-ho with full or near-full sailplans, and therefore right over on their ears as they crossed right over the Bramble Bank. They paced us but at no stage got any closer.
It couldn't have been due to our clean bottom or our new feathering prop, could it?
Fire99
Well-Known Member
To be honest, I don't think that many boats are at their optimum pace when heeled over to oblivion. I think it's just more a bravado thing and a bit more exciting to be gripping the tiller for all it's worth and seeing the water gushing past the guardwire posts.
westernman
Well-Known Member
No sailing boat I know of can sail off a lee shore if the wind gets up to the kind of wind strengths we see in winter down here in the med.
We seem to get at least once every winter a storm with winds in excess of 90knots. I had a fender blow out in one which gusted to 183km/h inside the marina.
DownWest
Well-Known Member
The words 'safe' and 'boat' are most likely to be seen in the advertising sections, esp if the targets are inexperienced buyers.
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