Sadler 29

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GPS2

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Just joined the forum and have picked up some helpful advice and tips - thank you.

I am, like many before me moving up from dinghy sailing to yacht. I have now focused in on a Sadler 29 twin keel for the East Coast and have looked at a few "tired" old girls. Can anyone share any experience of ownership, things to look out for and expectations from 30 year old engines, spars. VAT certified seems to be a bit hit or miss, would you buy without it :confused:
 
General info rather than Sadler specific...

Old engine - if it's 30 it will probably be tired. Most boats have probably been re-engined. Re-engining adds less to the value of the boat than it costs to do it, so look for a boat with a recent engine swap to save money in the long run. Same goes for new sails, dodgers, standing rigging, electronics etc.

Unless damaged spars should be fine, though roller furling if fitted might be tired.

If you aren't planning to take the boat abroad then VAT status is mostly irrelevant except for resale value - but tbh probably won't affect that much either and might be a bargaining chip to get the price down a little.

If this is your first big boat, definitely get a survey and be there when it's done, you will learn loads and it will make getting insurance easier.

As you probably know the 29 is the twin skin type with thick foam in-between the skins to make the boat "unsinkable". Apparently this foam can absorb water and cause a few issues with de-lamination - allegedly forward panels are most susceptible though opinion varies over how much this matters. the surveyor should be able to check for this and also for any de-lamination of the deck core.

Good luck and have fun :)
 
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Do you actually need twin keels because of a drying mooring? If not, a fin will be more rewarding to sail to windward. We had a fin on ours in Maylandsea for many years, on a swinging mooring. I only ask, because I have come across a number of people who feel that they automatically need twin keels on the East Coast.

The 29 is a very sound design for many people and a decent survey is all that you need. I doubt if many came with roller reefing. Our '87 boat had slab. The original Vanessa cooker is not up to modern standards and if present should be replaced by one with flame-failure built in. The original 18 hp engine was plenty in normal use, but I would be interested to know if a folding prop suited the boat, since it could improve the performance under sail.
 
The difficulty with older boats is sorting the wheat from the chaff & if you focus in on one model you're making the task of finding one of the relatively few good ones a lot more difficult for yourself. Go & see as many as you can, it's a great time to be looking to buy & good luck...
 
Many thanks for all the great advice.
Hydrozoan - thank you for the link to the sadler owners forum and I will have a good look on there.
Yachtailsa - great feedback on old engine v replacement and cost. Some suggest that old and simple and reliable (go on forever) if looked after, but a 2005+ Modern replacement has to be attractive. Good to hear that spars should be ok if looked after as you do wonder at 30+ years. Twin keel so I can explore go further inland or dry out when making wrong decisions- stabilisers for the first bike if you like. Thanks for the info on the original cooker Johnalison and I did come across one with a folding prop. There seems to be 2 camps on VAT but all agree that it is somewhat out of kilter on a 30 year old £20k yacht. Some follow your logic (especially those selling) and others suggest reducing the asking price by 20% on the average price range to mitigate possible future liability. A survey will definitely be required for peace of mind
V1701 - I am really enjoying the learning curve, a bit like being 17 again and trying to get to grips with all the ford cortina variants engine options and trim levels. I'm not in a hurry and hopefully a good one will turn up before 1st April mooring fees are due or end of season non use brings some change of heart. It's interesting to see many Sadler 26, 29 and 32 all in and around the same pricing averages of £14k to £20k
 
An excellent choice, but I'm biased.
I've never sailed a fin keeled one, but we're very happy with the performance of our bilge keeled boat.
We don't have any paperwork relating to vat, and it has never been an issue, in 8 yrs of ownership and 5 trips to France.
The general advice when buying boats of this age is to to spend a bit more on one that has been sorted, ie recent new engine, sails, standing rigging, cushions etc, rather than getting a tatty boat cheaper, and then spending a fortune. To give you some idea, we re-engined last year, at a cost of £7.5k, inc new feathering prop, (big improvement to sailing performance) and I did half of the fitting..... New main and stac pack £1.1k 2 yrs ago, and new standing rigging, £600, DIY fit 3 yrs ago, and the list goes on.
The advice to go a look at a few is very good. You will see the early boats, up to about 1985, have more difficult access to the galley sink and quarter berth, than later ones, when the bulkheads at the end of the cockpit were modified to slope them. A bit later they added a third window on each side, and some of the very late boats got a hatch in the saloon, as well as the forepeak.
We really like the foam filled construction, not least because it massively reduces condensation, compared to other boats I've sailed (and slept) on. The downside is the boat is rather smaller than other 29 footers down below.
Mike Lucas has a good reputation within the Sadler circles, and if we were ever to sell, it would probably be through him. He has a very early one listed at the moment, but it has its original engine, and is light blue, which won't be everybodies favourite.
Best of luck, and please ask if you have specific questions
 
Thank you Andy for a helpful insight into replacement costs and I have been warned that ownership is a never ending payout! However I am hooked and have many adventures to complete. Thanks to Dylan Winter for posting his wonderful journey around Britain, keep turning left. Another reason for wanting twin keels so good to know they have suited your requirements. I realised the difference this weekend on the updated 1989 onwards(?) versions providing the extra space gained at the galley and sitting at the chart table, this is now very desirable. I didn't know about the extra windows and hatch so thank you for that, I will keep an eye out. Mike Lucas is a lovely man and with the limited contact I have had, he has been most helpful todate so I understand why you would go to him.

It would be good to know when or why anyone had to replace their head sail furling gear and what to look out for when viewing on a boat for sale.
 
I sail a Weston 8500 which is not that slow, but despite her fin keel she cannot get away from one of the club member's bilge keeled Sadler 29. I have to pretend I'm going somewhere else... A useful comparison of the performance of common cruising boats is the RYA's cruiser handicap listings, on their website http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/NHC.aspx

Rob.
 
There is very little experience of the internal foam absorbing water. There may be a couple of cases in which external damage has separated the foam from the hull and some water from the damage has got into the void. When I fitted my yacht legs I cut out rectangles of foam to accommodate the backing pads (see my website). I immersed the foam in water for weeks and found no evidence at all that it had absorbed water. It would be worthwhile looking for any owner additions that have not been sealed properly, an external anode being perhaps the most likely, but possibly a bilge pump strum box screwed down beneath the engine might be another.

In one or two exceptional cases, in 34s that sailed extensively in heavy conditions, foam in the flat sections on each side of the bow has separated from the GRP. This is really the only problem that I know of.
 
We had a twin-keel Sadler 29 for 5 years, she was a lovely sailing boat, especially in lighter airs. In a breeze to windward in a chop you perhaps need to reef down a little early as the windward keel root tends to break surface and cause a lot of slapping and sloshing that slows her down a bit. But overall a super boat and if my circs changed I'd think of having one again.
 
Regarding furling gear, our boat came with Rotostay furling, which has been out of production for some time. It had been somewhat bodged by the previous owner (unusual, as most of the boat had been very well maintained), and while it worked, the bearings were shot, it didn't turn easily, and would deposit grease on the furling line and foredeck; it was being considered for replacement. However when the mast was down 3 yrs ago I got talking to Flew Sails, based at Wicormarine, (we used to keep the boat there, and they replaced the UV strip on the Genoa). They arranged for the bottom drum section to refurbished with new bearings etc, by somebody who used to work for Rotostay. They did an excellent job for around £120, and it works very well now.

In terms of what to look for when viewing a boat - I had a very thorough check list that ran to around 4 pages of A4 that I used when looking for ours. If you PM your e-mail address, I'll have a look tonight and send you a copy, if I can find it.....
 
we've had our twin keel S29 for over 11 years now and have been very happy with her. Still have the original VP 2002 which starts beautifully and burns no oil . Very clean and dry inside and no structural problems with rigging, keels or rudder. Ours is a self-finished boat and, maybe unusually, is all the better for that - very handsome woodwork down below.
 
reeac said:
we've had our twin keel S29 for over 11 years now and have been very happy with her. Still have the original VP 2002 which starts beautifully and burns no oil . Very clean and dry inside and no structural problems with rigging, keels or rudder. Ours is a self-finished boat and, maybe unusually, is all the better for that - very handsome woodwork down below.
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same here !
we've had our 81 sadler 29 about 10 yrs - lots of upgrades including beta 25 - love the fact it's warm , quiet and condense free -oh also we love the light blue colour too - she's a pretty boat
we like to be able to dry out sometimes (2-3 wks in scilly last summer) also it's a plus if no cradle needed when/if we start to move to different winter storage locations
 
Rob2, that made me laugh, a great story to tell. thanks for the link.
Vyv, thank you for your insight on the internal foam condition and absorbing properties. I have come across some toe rail damage on a couple of boats that could well have let water in over a long period, so knowing that it would not have been absorbed into the foam filler is good news. I am starting to build up a healthy list of items to look out for and understand their importance. It won't replace a surveyor but I am really enjoying reading others experiences and wisdom - many thanks. :encouragement:
 
Thank you for some comforting responses and it is a make and model that is clearly cherished by many and remembered/ sailed with some affection. Andrew it is good to know that furling gear can be refurbished as new replacements seem to start at arround £2k. PM sent.
 
Looking to hopefully moor at Blackwater SC - had an invite to look round and met some of the members there. Very friendly, thriving and nicely placed for travel. Twin keels will sit nicely on the mud and no doubt hide a few mistakes along the way
 
GPS2 said:
Looking to hopefully moor at Blackwater SC - had an invite to look round and met some of the members there. Very friendly, thriving and nicely placed for travel. Twin keels will sit nicely on the mud and no doubt hide a few mistakes along the way
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You've got an attitude problem; you don't have mistakes on the East Coast, you take soundings of the bottom.
 
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