S***ine's - imho they are horrible!

[kimhollamby]

Re: I do NOT understand

Not protecting any particular boatbuilder. Not even sure what a house post is...if you are inferring that we change anything posted about IPC you obviously missed ChrisP's efforts yesterday!

It might seem that I have favoured Sealine at present but not the case. Pretty much all of the stuff posted about Sealine is intact. I can usually prune a post that is wildly untrue and/or could be legally threatening if that proves really necessary (not talking specifically about Sealine). But when I am short of time I have to dump the whole thread if I have an issue with something posted. Twas the case with the F33 thread, thanks to the amount of completely unrelated trolling and other silly nonsense going on at the same time.

Only so many hours in the day I'm afraid...




kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[mustard]

Re: What happened here?

Now Kim, I'm the one who had the boat show "experience" with Sealine, and it was, repeat was, both genuine and embarassing and its the sort of experience I want others to know about for several reasons. 1) We do not act like this to our customers 2) the person I was with was one of those customers, wealthy and important to me, and pouring over an S41 and 3) There is not many places I can express my absolute displeasure without it appearing as sour grapes and yet reinforcing my right to opinion and the right to express it.

I would love to report the episode in detail, it was cringingly embarrassing for me, not funny but since a lot of your subjects find my contributions boring - not as funny or erudite as others I won't, but I but I'll be damned if a genuinely objectionable occasion such as this should have to go unreported for the sake of PC, whether it is perceived as rational or not.

And TCM is right, Wainright should listen. He lost two possible sales here and a lot of goodwill. We are important in our industry - we talk to a lot of people. Like it or not, any boat manufacturer should have us on side.

So don't stop us having opinions even if we flame occasionally - manufacturing quality might be part of the equation and something I want to know about on this site, but Customer Relations is equally so, and Sealine blew it.

A man and his boat do not need to be justifed....

 

[burgundyben]

I disagree.

I have first hand experience of 215, 305, 310 and 365 and I can confirm that the build quality some years ago was in places appalling and they did fall apart on a regular basis, in some cases it was significant structural problems, like the boat that got ripped apart by the factory to have end grain balsa laminated into the bottom of the hull to make it stiffer due to severe cracks that had appeared.

The fact is that most of the Sealine lay up is/was done with a chopper gun and as such the continuity through the structure given by woven rovings is not present, I am aware that the chopper gun method does have its benefits (e.g. the chemical bonds are better) and that sealine have now started to use rovings in places of high stress, I do beleive that their construction has come along way.

I do feel your statement "and quite a few references to subjective stuff about the fact that the boats fall apart after two years (they don't) and suffer catastrophic structural problems as a breed (they don't)." is inaccurate, not everyone that views this forum will be buying/owning one of the newer craft and as such they deserve to be given an accurate and fair opinion of the craft in question.

I think Sealine have failed to show the boat buying public the improvements that have been made in their construction and as a result will find it hard improve their reputation.

We shoudl also remember that Sealine have a place in the market as do Kia/Lada/Hyundia.

All IMHO.

Phew.








For sale, 1970 Triumph Spitfire-sold, 1947 Lambretta, 1922 Great grandmother, PM for details.

 

[mustard]

Re: I do NOT understand

.....and further, I started my whole damned first ever chat room experience telling how I was buying a Sealine F43 when I got shafted!

Glad I know more now, tho.....

A man and his boat do not need to be justifed....

 

[EME]

Re: I do NOT understand

I promised I would reply when I could.

My reference to a 'House Post' referred to 'Professional Journalist' posts. Where , the nature of who pays the wages MIGHT possibly influence what is wriiten. Note this is not a claim just a recognition of possible external influence. It is normal marketing practice. The actual words 'House Post' were written spontaneously, no idea where I got them from. Another case of my demolishing the English language.

Interesting that my perception was of a personal bias towrds c-line...funny thing perception doesn't mean I'm right and is almost definitely inaccurate. Put it down to a naturally sceptical outlook on human behaviour ... after all Jeffrey Archer conned some pretty bright people.

My views on actual boats have to be limited to what I see. I will maintain my handle to recognise the clear difference in knowledge and experience demonstrated on this Bulletin Board. Consequently when I said that the C39 looked stupid in the Cannes Boat show, I meant that it just didn't look like a med - boat ..to me. In fact i would suspect that Sealine have LITTLE if ANY aspiration for it to sell in the Med at all.

I value the contributions on this forum on boat choice VERY highly. There is no doubt that the content here has significantly influenced my decision-making. It is both complimentary to and critical of the articles in MBY and MBM.

Long may they all continue..Thought Police and All !!

...I wanna boat please..

 

[tripleace]

Sealine build quality

1. I own a sealine 365, and have done so for 5 years. Built 1988

2. I cannot fault the build quality.

3. Real wood solid

4. solid construction

5. well laid out and has not dated like the sunseeker and other marques.


faults:

electrics, especially the plastic panels which I have replaced.

small sized electric cables, again which we have replaced and up sized

Sealine built shower tray system (cut it out and bought new system).

All in all I will buy another sealine, or at least serious look at them. My problem is that they like other do not manufature a sports boat in the 40 / 45 feet class which has enough berths for a family and guests.

The faults mentioned are typically of any older boat. technology has moved forward since the 80's and thus these items need to be changed to keep it in step with current demands

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.boating-ads.co.uk/365.html> Triple Ace Link</A>

 

[simongoldthorpe]

Re: S***ine\'s - imho they are horrible!

br**ms are better than S***ines, that's breams of course.

 

[halcyon]

Re: Sealine build quality

A couple of points before triple ace has owners spending a furtune when not required.

Electric cabling, triple ace was fitted out with a lot of none standard lights etc, which were added during build. These caused the high loading on the system and cable size. Standard build has satisfactory cable size.

Electric panel, or 99% of them are still operating ok after 20 years, and do not need changing. Spare and repairs are also available , e-mail support@kddpowercentre.com


Do not make assumption when buying a secondhand boat, all boats are differant. It is wrong to judge all boats on one special example.


Brian

 

[EME]

Comparitive tests

br**ms are better than S***ines,

....not if the stern view reminds you of an ex-wife they're not....

...I wanna boat please..

 

[kimhollamby]

Honest reply

If you scratch the surface of the people I work with here of course you will find influences creeping into their objectivity but they are far more to do with personal preference than commercial pressure.

For example, Windy might consistently get a good press because every time one of our guys jumps into one it performs as you might expect -- well -- a Windy to perform. You cannot help but warm to a company that does that. I haven't got a clue what the company spends with the mags here but as long as it keeps designing hulls the way it does you'll get a technical editor getting enthusiastic about it. I once saw the rear cleat get ripped out of a Windy 9800 back in the early 1990s, partly because it was only backed with penny washers; perhaps that might have damned another company for a long time but that subjective warm feeling was probably there to temper it (cannot remember now), and not without reason.

In terms of Sealine (or Fairline for that matter, given that they took a lot of heat recently) do I have contrary personal views to some of those expressed and do I get enthusiastic about some of the things those companies do? Yes.

Those of you that know me from my previous life as MBM editor will be aware that, through the development of the cruising club as well as simply being in the hot seat, I saw a great cross-section of boats that were built through the last 30 years and have been very well exposed to problems as and when they have happened. I know it's not all gilt-edged.

As a micro-resurrection of the canned thread in the case of the early Sealines I would personally pass on the 305 Statesman and especially the earlier 30 model; sterndrives and flybridges are not easy marriages as Princess discovered with the 30DS. The F33 is a different and later animal. I've worked on a few and seen plenty of them cross the Channel without fuss but not ridden on one so what I can say after that is limited.

From the same era as the 305 I would buy a 285 Ambassador, having been in some big downwind seas in one of those where it outperformed our running mate on the day, a Sunfury 26, largely thanks to it having a bit more buoyancy forward I suspect. But I would expect that most 285s are not looking at their best now and I would check any one very thoroughly as some of them had big engines and got hammered. It's a cheap buy for good reasons and therefore potentially a bit of a bargain.

Given that Sunfury 26s had mostly white gelcoat and 285s came with greys and maroons amongst the gelcoat builds cosmetically the Fairline and its Princess 266 and 286 equivalents would win the beauty contest now; they would probably win the structure contest for that era too. That said, we also saw a Fairline 21 Sprint of the same era gather big hull cracks within one year of build back in 1989 thanks to a V8 petrol and an owner who only knew one speed irrespective of conditions. Owner history plays a major part, as many here have probably discovered to their cost. You can kill anything of you try hard enough except, perhaps, for the first GRP boats in the 1960s and early 1970s that were built in pounds rather than ounces of laminate. Drill a hole through an old Fjord, for example, and you'll probably wind up with a waste plug an inch or more thick.

Another stern cleat story: we also saw one drop off of a Princess 266 that we gave away in a competition many moons ago just minutes before the winner turned up at Southampton; someone down at Marine Projects forgot to tighten the fastenings. Still think that the 266 is a good boat (286 better) but with Jim Davidson making the presentation it was a close run thing as to on whom the joke would fall, especially as he was a Princess owner at the time.

Back to Sealine I wouldn't have any hesitation, personally, in buying later models such as the F36/F37 with which I became very familiar in 1998/2001. They are out of my budget right now, so it's academic. But I'm familiar with them, I know what the hull can do, I know where the niggles are and so I have strong personal feelings about that bit of Sealine's model range. Also very much enjoyed running a 410 for two weeks last year. Perhaps the aft cabin is not for the claustrophobic or those of above average height but I and my crew were really happy with the boat.

It was interesting recently when one of my currently personal favourite boats, the Broom 38CL, took a bit of heat here. Useful to read the different view, did reply fairly robustly, but it's not changed my opinion much. I'd buy one even though I'm not a big fan of the original sterngland arrangement and like most aft cabins, the machinery space is tight in places.

Some of the forum users were speculating about how well Fairline would do in terms of delivering the Squadron 74 but from a personal perspective I thought it was one of the best in that sector that I have seen; got the kind of enthusiastic feelings from it that I got when Fairline became amongst the first of the British builders to address long-standing issues in the mid-1990s such as engine access, engineering and ventilation. Doesn't stop me being aware of some of the problems the company has had to address over the years.

For that matter I'd happily buy one of the big Bayliner motoryachts, especially the 4588/4788 Pilot House. Wouldn't expect it to be perfect, would expect to get lots of heat here but I would be putting my money down on a 1980s build. Would do so from the knowledge of having used several of the models and recognised them for what they are.

That is also quite a good illustration of the fact that damning a marque doesn't take account of the fact that most models head down different production lines with different work teams. Despite changes in the ways things are done, there are variances in quality between models on most manufacturers' boats (and other products). In its heyday Bayliner had in excess of 15 factories across the US; wouldn't personally have entertained the thought of buying a mid 1980s Ciera (although I suspect they are a bargain now) but those motoryachts were a different proposition provided you didn't want 30 knots et al.

I suppose what I am rambling on about is that, unlike some of the suggestions hereabouts (admitedly most in jest) people that work here don't come out of the same jelly mould and we are positively encouraged by the Commercial Director who heads the whole marine group (the person ultimately responsible for its profitability) to keep editorial absolutely independent. If you detect bias at any stage well then it could just be that some of us have more sea miles and more exposure to different things, good and bad, than we are sometimes credited for and that personal views will colour things a bit, however hard one strives for objectivity. Indeed, it is often the personal angle that people reading magazines see as most valuable.

Bringing that back to the forums, that will mean that I do have personal feelings about some of the comments here that I feel might be a bit off-beam - cannot help that. And at the most extreme edge I may occasionally have to temper something for legal considerations, purely because I don't want to see what is an extremely useful facility here get tangled in those kinds of knots. But it doesn't mean I'm going to zap every post the minute I disagree with it either, as you have seen.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[jfm]

Re: Precise legals on Birchwood

Apols Kim for getting you into trouble. Re your last point, I dont think I practise "outright slagging". All my sealine and Birchwood comments are reasoned (subjective) comment. I'm not having a pop for the sake of it. Make no mistake, Birchwood would have sold more boats if they had sorted the horrid knuckle and the Commando windows. They think they know best, that's fine.

But please dont get scared by nearly solicitor letters. Solicitors write letters because that's how they earn a living, not becos they are right. OK you're right, I said receivership not administration. I did it becos administration is a tecky term, whereas receivership is understood to mean "in financial trouble". But let's be precise: a company goes into administration only when the court "is satisfied [it] is or is likely to become unable to pay its debts". That's big trouble.

Now, the solicitor can write a letter if he likes. Not scared. If he wants to say "it's only aministration, not receivership" in the sense "oh...., everything's alright then", let him. I would then have his address, which would allow me to write to him asking about the forward-looking statements on Birchwood's website, where it says management have a program which "ensures their future". Funny that, becos the court still thinks they're likely to be unable to pay their debts. So who's guilty of misstatement here? - me, with a splitting hairs receiver/adminstration comment, or Birchwood who are telling everyone their future is "ensured" and they're "confident about the future"? Let's call a spade a spade - Birchwood is in deep financial shit and that's not my opinion, it's the court's. Would you place a deposit with them for a new Commando, when the court has said (in effect) you're likely to lose your money?

As for your 1-out-of-3 point, the company in administration is Birchwood Boat Co Limited, the actual manufacturer of Birchwood boats. Administration order was handed down by the court on 23/8/02. The company is therefore being run by a firm of insolvency practitioners. This doesn't apply to the other two companies, but these are insignificant/holding companies. Sorry, but your point here is a total non point.

Anyway, once again, apols for trouble, my comments above simply reflect non-scaredness by solicitor letter-writer types

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: Precise legals on Birchwood

For the precise releases on Birchwood:

http://www.ybw.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20020803123955ibinews.html

For the record we weren't nearly threatened by anything but we were aware, especially as Birchwood were allowed to continue trading at the Southampton Boat Show by the organisers, that an inference the company was no longer trading could provide interested parties with an easy meal ticket - us. That's the only reason for my caution regarding the recent post that suggested a blanket receivership.

As you're pretty well up on this stuff you'll know that the biggest penalty of any legal exchange is the time that it wastes; there's no need to waste time on this one.

As for slagging, sorry, no intention to make it sound like it was directed anywhere other than at the MBC world at large. Apologies for making it appear otherwise.


kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[jfm]

Proper \"precise\"

No, they were just journal articles based on press releases. For the PRECISE answer you go to the actual court orders (which is what I did) and the law (namely section 8, Insolvency Act 1986, which is where it states the stuff about likely to be unable to pay debts).

While we're on about "precise", can someone tell me what is "bespoke" about Birchwood boats? They use that word all over their website and marketing stuff, and it's also in the articles Kim's post links to. They're production boats aren't they, not bespoke at all?

 

[EME]

Honest reply

What a very well reasoned and quantified argument.

All hail to you, although you MUST have worked with individuals who have done things 'other than for personal preference'??

A better read than most if not all of the stuff in MBY at the moment. (Seriously!)

Have you ever hought of writing for a living /forums/images/icons/smile.gif



...I wanna boat please..

 

[kimhollamby]

Production versus bespoke

Interesting question. The flip side is I meet people who argue that volume boat manufacture in the 30ft plus range rarely gets onto a full production footing in a manufacturing sense. So perhaps use of the term production boatbuilding equally wrong in that area?

If it's neither bespoke, nor production, then perhaps it's semi bespoke or half production, a bit like the grey terms that creep in to try and define hull designs with a keel?

Incidentally, truly yuk the IBI news pieces use bespoke. I'm going there now to sort that out /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: Honest reply

Well said, Kim. A very bad experience with a 305 (MBM Cruise to Normandy 1991) put me off Sealine for years and I would'nt reccomend that particular model to anyone but, since then, I've run two other Sealines, S37 and 410/F43 which were nigh on faultless and I got my money back when I sold them.
I dont think Sealine get enough credit for the design ideas they've pioneered. Personally, I think the aft cabin/aft cockpit arrangement first seen on the 410/450, albeit borrowed from sailing boat design, is an excellent piece of work. Were they not the first builder to introduce stairs to access their flybridges rather than ladders and the storage arrangements they build into flybridge overhangs for canopies and cockpit tables are excellent. Some of their latest concepts are a bit wacky but you've got to give them credit for trying, particularly for the choice of propulsion systems they've introduced on the C39. Walking around SIBS and looking at the massed ranks of Fairlines and Princesses I could'nt help thinking, yawn, show me something different guys.
Question on the Broom 38CL. If I remember this got rave reviews for its seakeeping in a MBM test but a couple of Broom's own people (they're so honest, bless them) have actually told me it's a bit of a dog in a following sea and not to buy one for offshore use! Have you had experience of the 38 in a seaway?

 

[jfm]

Re: Sealine aft cabin

Totally agree about the aft cockpit/aft cabin combo. This is excellent designimho . I'm amazed it hasn't been copied

 

[wakeup]

Re: Sealine aft cabin

What's an aft cabin/cockpit?


yada yada..

 

[jfm]

Re: Sealine aft cabin

That clever design on a few of the sealines, eg the T46. Flybridge boat with an aft cabin, but outside on deck there is a proper aft cockpit. In other words, it's not like a Turbo 36 frxample where you sit right up on top of the aft cabin, rather there is a cockpit sunken into the roof of the aft cabin. All very cleverly done by having a bit of low headroom over the aft double bed.

Here's the outside

And here's inside the aft cabin. The low part above the bed is the floor of the cockpit above. The round window is in the middle of the transom

Clever stuff eh?

 

[tripleace]

Re: Sealine build quality

re comments about Triple Ace.

Yes the lights were added during the build but Sealine / electrical advisers did not rate the cabling correctly. It does not matter if they were add ons or not. that fact is they were underrared for the boat.

Panels: whilst many may still be working technology has moved on and better systems are avaialble. I agree don't change unless broken, but teh idea was to give an honest answer to sealine quality and not be one sided because I have one.

Obviously you are interested as a supplier of parts to sealine and therefore are naturally defending the product.

The summary of my post was, good boat, well built, but 14 years have past and better electrical things are avaialble and can be upgraded if a fault appears.



<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.boating-ads.co.uk/365.html> Triple Ace Link</A>