Ryanair

[Shannoner]

If you keep on dumbing down the air transport industry (particularly flight crew), you will get dumber and dumber operators (pilots). Then the safety gains that have been won over decades, paid for by higher price travel, will start to unwind and go in reverse.

$16,000 p.a. salary (less than a 'burger flipper') for a first officer in a US regional airline? Trainees who pay the airline to increase their flight hours so buy their way on to becoming first officer on passenger carrying flights? These are just a couple of examples of an industry that is going the wrong way. The inertia of the system is (largely) masking these distortions for the moment, but the train will hit the buffers sooner or later.

Surley, Ryanair/Easyjet flight crew and aircraft are subject to the same stringent safety rules and regulations that "high cost" airline crew and aircraft are subject to?
The Ryanair/Easyjet business model works by providing p*ss poor customer service, not by cutting corners on safety, e.g. 1 second late for check in and you don't board and have to buy another flight if you want to fly, your bag is 1cm to big for carry on and you pay to check it in, your flight is cancelled...tough sh*t no hotel etc etc.
If you are prepared to play by their rules and follow them to the letter, you will get a very cheap flight. Which is what I have done every time I fly with them. The reason I don't particularly relish flying with Ryanair, is that they treat me like sh#te and not because I feel they are not safe.
This may not suit all people, so they are free to pay the extra and fly with the high cost airlines, and they will get top notch customer service.
But IMHO to say that low cost airlines cut corners on safety is wrong.

Mick (not O'Leary) and I don't work for Ryanair

 

[Observer]

I think you have been a bit unfair on mjf's comments - I agree with him.

Your last point - on other airlines there's a lot of "fat" in the system that can be trimmed out which is what Ryanair is doing. To date, there havent been any concerns about Ryanair's safety either. In fact it could be argued that its safer to take off using the slot thats been preallocated than to be late leaving the stand as happens (in my experience) with BA for example. A plan that starts late often gathers other problems later. Prompt schedules are often safer in these types of circumstances.

Ryanair may well have a good enough or even exceptionally good safety record. I am making the general point, not specifically aimed at Ryanair, that air travel safety as a whole carries a price tag that is incompatible with very low cost fares.

If it's not being paid by Ryanair (and other low cost airline) passengers (it's really hard to see where there's room for that), it can only be paid by the premium service airline passengers. Those airlines are (mostly) struggling with sharply reduced premium fare passenger numbers. The cost of safety may be carried by those airlines for a while, as operating losses/reduced profits, but not indefinitely. I think we're living on credit and the bill will be presented at some time in the future. My suspicion and fear is that the bill, when it comes, will be in the form of sharply deteriorating accident stats. The signs are there already. Look at some of the recent crashes (Schiphol and Buffalo to name two), which have aircraft handling skills deficiency as a common feature.

 

[nonitoo]

I think we are lucky to have the CAA/FAA maintenance/safety standards here in the UK (and, for all I know, in other western countries). It is a fact that certain maijntenance schedules MUST be complied with and the signatory has to be a CAA certified (and up to date) technician.

This, to a certain extent, separates the maintenance/safety issues from the commercial aspect.

Whatever business model you use, if the CAA/FAA schedules are not carried out satifactorily, the plane does not fly.

I know this is a slight oversimplification but the general rule applies.

Tom

 

[Observer]

I think we are lucky to have the CAA/FAA maintenance/safety standards here in the UK (and, for all I know, in other western countries). It is a fact that certain maijntenance schedules MUST be complied with and the signatory has to be a CAA certified (and up to date) technician.

This, to a certain extent, separates the maintenance/safety issues from the commercial aspect.

Whatever business model you use, if the CAA/FAA schedules are not carried out satifactorily, the plane does not fly.

I know this is a slight oversimplification but the general rule applies.

Tom

I've no doubt you're right but the reliability of the machinery and the safety of air travel do not depend only on maintenance schedules.

Safety has a cost and it's a high cost. Take rail travel in the UK. It is very safe, safer than air travel by some measures. But it has come, and is being sustained, at a very high cost, which, in the UK, is reflected in fare prices, despite substantial government subsidy. You cannot really think that air travel safety can be bought for the same price as rail travel safety. So why should it be possible to travel by air more cheaply and with (more or less) the same safety? Doesn't compute does it?

 

[Observer]

Surley, Ryanair/Easyjet flight crew and aircraft are subject to the same stringent safety rules and regulations that "high cost" airline crew and aircraft are subject to?
The Ryanair/Easyjet business model works by providing p*ss poor customer service, not by cutting corners on safety, e.g. 1 second late for check in and you don't board and have to buy another flight if you want to fly, your bag is 1cm to big for carry on and you pay to check it in, your flight is cancelled...tough sh*t no hotel etc etc.
If you are prepared to play by their rules and follow them to the letter, you will get a very cheap flight. Which is what I have done every time I fly with them. The reason I don't particularly relish flying with Ryanair, is that they treat me like sh#te and not because I feel they are not safe.
This may not suit all people, so they are free to pay the extra and fly with the high cost airlines, and they will get top notch customer service.
But IMHO to say that low cost airlines cut corners on safety is wrong.

I haven't said that low cost airlines cut corners WRT current safety regulations. I do believe that their fares do not reflect the real cost of safety. They are exploiting a demand for cheap air travel and they and their passengers are 'living off the fat' of a safety record paid for by full service airlines and previous generations of higher-fare passengers. I believe the industry as a whole has lost sight of the real cost of safety.

I want the flight crew of the aircraft I'm travelling in to be well-motivated, well-trained and experienced. Well motivated means (in part) well-paid. That costs, as does "well-trained" and "experienced". There's a whole generation of new(er) pilots who simply do not have the basic handling skills, frequently practised, on which air travel safety depends. Take the United ditching in the Hudson River. Sullenberger is a massively experienced pilot who, when the time came, had the skills and experience (with the assistance of a very experienced FO) to ditch his aircraft without loss of life. Sullenberger, in interview, said that he would not enter the profession now and would discourage his children from doing so. I find that very worrying. As I alluded to above, the FO in Colgan Air crash at Buffalo was on lower pay than a McD burger flipper. Personally, I would like the pilot responsible for the safety of the aircraft I'm in (even 2ic) to be more highly valued than that.

I'm not a commercial or any sort of pilot, but I've read enough accident reports and thoughtful, reasoned comments by people who are to realise that, when things start going pear-shaped on an aircraft, flight crew responses have to be immediate and faultless. Assurance of that depends on instinctive, sound judgement that only comes from experience, frequent practice and high standards of training. Imo, the cost of that is simply not being paid, and, in small degrees, it's starting to show.

 

[mjf]

Doh! Because when an aircraft breaks down, it falls out of the sky. When a bus breaks down, it just stops.



9/11? Walking bombs?

Look - whilst I do not want to make like a tent peg when something does wrong; the whole airport process is in the dark ages.

As i said whats the matter with Eurostar style - here there are similar safety issues etc.

I recall "Walking bombs" in London. Fact is there is an issue on the bus, tube, train etc.
My nearby tube sometimes has airport style 'gates' to screen peeps.

Why do we have the silly issue of a check in at a counter hours before take off, then another counter for passports / doc's then security then yet another bleedin counter at the gate and on and on.

Arrive - go to the gate. Saves costs and your hassle.

 

[nonitoo]

Why do we have the silly issue of a check in at a counter hours before take off, then another counter for passports / doc's then security then yet another bleedin counter at the gate and on and on.

Get them all airside and corral them with a pile of shops = more profit.

Wot me cynical - never !

Tom

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Why do we have the silly issue of a check in at a counter hours before take off, then another counter for passports / doc's then security then yet another bleedin counter at the gate and on and on.

Arrive - go to the gate. Saves costs and your hassle.

Because you'd have to have separate security and passport control at every gate, not to mention separate baggage handling facilities at every gate. That would be hugely costly. I believe there are something like 250 gates at Heathrow. That means 250 separate passport and security controls

 

[asteven221]

Frankly yes. If I have paid for a service in advance and I am on parade as instructed I expect the travel partner to perform (sort it out) without undue inconvience to me.

Whats wrong with that?

Correct! Agree.

Hey MJF. I think you will find bus companies and train companies will sort you out if you're stuck when it's THEIR fault. Trouble is with conair, you are almost certainly dumped, isolated hundreds or thousands of miles from home. Also, their airports are in the sticks - miles from any hotels. Further, they don't give a f%^&!

 

[asteven221]

Air travel is not the same as bus travel (do I need to explain why?)

Yes please

Quite why one is expected to arrive hours before a flight and have the performance of check in etc is daft.

Whats the matter of operating like Eurostar - turn up with / without bag and go minutes before sched. departure. Why not go direct to the gate?

I think Ryanair have the airport bit correct frankly.

Might be something to do with people that hate us trying to blow us up. Also planes are a wee bit more complicated than buses and it's a bummer when they break down in the sky.

 

[nonitoo]

Correct! Agree.Also, their airports are in the sticks - miles from any hotels. Further, they don't give a f%^&!

From the airport website

Ryanair/Frankfurt-Hahn to Frankfurt 1 hr 45 mins by bus

Tom

 

[Shannoner]

From the airport website

Ryanair/Frankfurt-Hahn to Frankfurt 1 hr 45 mins by bus

Tom

Yes and Beauvais is 1hr 30mins from Paris by bus, we all know that Ryanair don't fly into the main airports in most cities.
I flew to Paris from Dublin last June. Flight €40 all in, bus €26, total €66. Aer Lingus was €120, nearly double.
I was on a jolly, so didn't mind the bus journey.
The train from Dublin to Cork is €71 return. Give me a few days in Paris over a few days in Cork anytime! (No offence to any Corkonians)
Don't care what anyone says, it is low cost no frills airlines that enable a lot of us on here to travel around this wonderful European Union.

 

[mjf]

Because you'd have to have separate security and passport control at every gate, not to mention separate baggage handling facilities at every gate. That would be hugely costly. I believe there are something like 250 gates at Heathrow. That means 250 separate passport and security controls

No Mike.

You have the security before ie as you ''arrive" . Just as you do at St Pancras

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

No Mike.

You have the security before ie as you ''arrive" . Just as you do at St Pancras

Er, enlighten me. The last time I travelled by Eurostar (from Waterloo), you put your baggage thru an x ray machine before you proceeded to a waiting lounge before being invited to board the train. Just like an airport, in fact, the only difference being that you had to hump your own baggage to the train because there was no facility for checking in luggage. Is it any different now and what makes it better than an airport?

 

[robinsondb]

All low cost airlines originally based their business model on Southwest Airline in the US. this is a brilliant operation - the only airline to make money post 9-11 and the customer experience is in my experience excellent. If they can make the nausea of airtravel into something reasonable why can't the low costies here? Ah - now I remember - they are American. In America, for all its faults and problems, Customer is King. Here we are just self loading cargo. Yes Ryanair are mega cheap and mega efficient in aviation terms but the whole experience from initial logon to the final cabin announcement is hideous. It does not have to be this way. ds

 

[ian38_39]

Ryan air isn't cheap, it is possible to travel cheaply but only if you can get a cheap seat booked early. If you have to fly tomorrow check out how much it wil cost you.

There are not many empty seats on a Ryan Air plane but half of the people have paid a fortune to be able to travel at a time that suits their personal emergency and they can only do this because Ryan Air operate so many flights.

I would hazard a guess that the average seat price on a Ryan air or Easy jet flight is not that different to that of a more up market airline

The problem I have found with Ryan Air is if you turn up at the airport and find that there have only been a few seats sold so the prmium price seats have not been filled, I have expierienced three of these occasions and on each one the plane has had technical problems with passengers transfered to a later flight.

Ian

 

[ADLS]

Lots of airports are in the sticks and will always be difficult for some people to get to and easy for others. Just try getting to Heathrow with 20kl of baggage from say Beckton in E. London by public transport at the weekend.

Whats the difference between say Stanstead and Gatport Airwick both have rail access into the airport. As with Hong Kong, Bangkok and KL all airports way out in the sticks.

I did compair Air Asia and Vietnam Airways return flight prices Saigon HCMC to Bangkok, AA $172 no baggage, scamble for seat, 1 flight per day that gets into BKK 8.30 pm. VA $180 20kl baggage, allocated seat, coffee/soft drink, 4 flights per day so midday check out hotel and into BKK in the afternoon great. I think I can go the extra $8.
These were officebooked tickets as to book online with AA takes forever and they want to know what colour underpants I will be wearing.

Never book a cheapo airline if you are changing to an ongoing flight, so many of my workmates who have missed connections have taken the cheapos and in the long run have cost them a fortune in hotels, missed work days etc, luckily the second carrier have mostly booked them on the next flight free. Something that would not happen with elcheapo.

Yes I will fly with the low cost carriers but only if I'm not in a hurry, I'm not taking baggage and it's at the right time of day, it's to a convient airport and that it's a lot cheaper than other carriers and not by just a few quid.

 

[hector]

Jeepers when we get stuck in a city do we expect the bus company to sort it out? No. Same applies for rail. Why do we expect an airline to be different? In the old days of high cost air travel and cartels we paid to be pampered, air travel was different to other modes of public transport. Not anymore. It does what it says on the tin, but we instinctively hanker after the service of the old days of expensive flying.

Total rubbish,if I've paid good money to an airline in advance, I expect them to keep to there side of the deal, which is to get me there AND back!!

 

[happyboater69]

Run by a most unpleasant man, remember when he tried to charge extra for wheelchair users, sure charge a credit card surcharge but to surcharge someone with a disabilty is pretty low!

 

[nicho]

Run by a most unpleasant man, remember when he tried to charge extra for wheelchair users, sure charge a credit card surcharge but to surcharge someone with a disabilty is pretty low!

Ryanair didn't if I remember - it was the responsibility of the British Airports Auithority to supply the wheelchair, and they failed in their duty. Hellfire, even I'm defending Ryanair now......!!