RYA:
- Thread starter toad_oftoadhall
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toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Two things are factually incorrect. The ICC is irrevocably connected with CEVNI requirements. It is based on the practical requirements to meet CEVNI. If you obtain CEVNI in France for example you undertake a similar test, which is compulsory and has to be paid for. Taking the additional test for CEVNI regulations is optional and only necessary if you want to enter the waters where it is a requirement.
Second, there is a wide range of examiners authorised to examine for the ICC. You do not have to use a sailing school. Many clubs have members who are authorised examiners and will carry out the examination free or for a modest sum.
The certificate has immense value to those that need it. The cost in the UK is lower than in other countries. Many other countries as you well know have compulsory testing and licencing which is vastly more expensive than the ICC and many of those qualifications are acceptable in third party countries with or without the ICC. For a UK sailor who does not have a qualification, the certificate is the only way they can meet the requirements to undertake certain activities.
As to including the cost in membership fees, it is perfectly reasonable to offer this as a benefit to those who are prepared to join and to charge non members for something that is of direct value to them. That is the agreement they have with the government as a condition of managing the process.
The RYA is very open about the certificate's acceptability. Nowhere does it claim it is a legal requirement - that is only an implication that you draw because it suits your distorted personal opinion. That is the same reason why they do not provide a list of nations. They provide a list of countries that have signed up to Resolution 40 who accept the ICC where it is necessary for certain activities and indicate other areas where it might also be acceptable which includes many countries that have not formally signed Resolution 40. Not sure why you cannot accept honesty and instead ask for something that is not possible.
PS Pleased to see that I have met the top 3 levels of your hierarchy of argument!
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webcraft
Well-Known Member
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
No it's not - unless you are going on the inland waterways.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
No you haven't, your whole post is one big use of the distraction fallicy.
I said "There seems to be some circumstantial evidence that the RYA do regard ICCs as a cash cow:" and offered 7 examples of why. Saying that something is "reasonable" doesn't mean it's not gathering cash. Saying that "The ICC is irrevocably connected with CEVNI requirements." doesn't mean the RYA *have* to issue both in conjunction and many countries don't. Saying that a 'wide range of people etc' doesn't refute point 3.
"The RYA is very open about the certificate's acceptability." - it isn't open at all, but since it's totally subjective I'll grant you that one.
So six out of 7 still stand AFAIC and you haven't even attempted to refute the first point which is probably the best example of 'cash cowing'.
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I seem to recall your earlier posts as informative and entertaining - has something unpleasant happened in your life, making you resort to ad hominem attacks?
Anyway, to respond to your point - member benefits are fine if the organisation resources the product. In this case the certificate is mandated by government but the RYA profit from it. I'd hoped my Ryanair analogy would have made this obvious.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Firstly the amount the RYA profit from it is a moot point. I would suggest that not a lot is the answer.
Secondly, when people are so set in their minds against an organisation or institution nothing anyone says or do is likely to change their minds. The good thing is that people reading their arguments can usually see them for what they are.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
I'm just sick of Toad's endless, pointless, stupid attacks on the RYA.
I suspect he was refused a certificate at some point in his sailing career, failed a YM exam or something similar - I can't think of any other reason for such a lengthy, protracted and dreary campaign against an essentially benign and utterly non-compulsory organisation.
As to my earlier posts - like everyone on here you will find those of my posts you agree with entertaining but those you disagree with dreadful. That is how these things work I am afraid.
- W
Nicholas123
N/A
Give over;they're up to their arm pits in all sorts of "qualifications."Personally I can find better things to do with forty quid in the first place.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I have not attempted to refute the first point because you asked to be challenged on whether your statements were true or not and that one is true so there is no point in trying to refute it. There are however sound reasons which you have been told over and over again why there is a 5 year renewal period. It may well be that those reasons are no longer valid, but that is for the MCA to decide. If you believe they are acting unreasonably in maintaining that policy then take it up directly with them.
The relationship between the ICC and CEVNI is as I described. To gain the CEVNI certificate from any country you have to pass a test of competence equal to or better than the ICC plus take the test for understanding the regulations. In many countries this is by way of their compulsory licencing system. In the UK you can meet that with a Day Skipper which automatically qualifies for an ICC plus the regulations test OR you can take the test for the ICC and the regulations test. Absolutely no difference, and in effect far simpler and cheaper than obtaining CEVNI in other countries. So, your assertions about this aspect are wrong. I am sorry you seem to have so much difficulty in understanding this. Let me know what it is you don't understand.
Please explain why the RYA is not open. Everything you criticise it for not explaining is in the public domain. If you do not understand what they are saying or think there should be further information then ask them or the MCA to provide the information you think is lacking.
There is no point in discussing your notion of a "cash cow" as that is only a construct that exists in somebody's mind so is not real and concrete. If you mean that it generates cash then that is correct. If you are implying that the cash it generates greatly exceeds costs then there is no point in discussing it because neither you nor I have any idea of the costs involved. Once again if it concerns you (and I don't see why it should given that you are neither a member of the RYA nor do you have an ICC) I suggest you take the matter up direct with the RYA. Then you might be able to make observations based on fact and not your guesswork.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
If you don't want to use your boat in the European inland waterways or charter a boat in some countries then you don't need an ICC so your personal need to save £40 is met. If you do the £40 (plus the test cost) is a bargain.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Cite them.
Cite. AFAIK the rules require some kind of 'practical'. IIRC they don't say what it has to be. Someone with no RYA quals signing to say someone's good enough without charging is perfectly adequate.
Thanks. Citing the requested information above will clear up any misunderstandings.
John thought there was a point or he wouldn't have denied that ICC's are a cash cow. You obviously think there's a point since your posts here are 100 per cent attepting to object to my case that ICCs *are* a cash cow. It' shard to tell what Webbie thinks since his sole contribution is Ad Hom attacks but he doesn't seem to be in total agreement with me either! So it seems a load of people *do* think there's a point to debating it.
There's no ambguity about what Cash cow means in this context: "A business, investment, or product that provides a steady income or profit."
Right you're arguing that the RYA web site is open and clear I'm arguing that it's not. Here's a good test of who is right. Go to the RYA website and come back with a list of countries that you can't charter in without an ICC. I'm saying there are none. Not one single one. You find that info on the RYA web site and you will have shown that's it open and clear.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
In that case its a free country and you don't have to pay.
Its clear that many countries require the skipper of a boat to have some sort of qualification and there is a risk to sailing abroad without the minimum of at least an ICC. One was always told that in theory you could be asked to produce your ticket, but I also know that I have never been asked to produce a qualification despite having cruised many many countries. It just depends how difficult the local authorities want to be and what risk you want to take...
I don't know what point you are making reference qualifications since the RYA is recognised as the administrators of what many people round the world regard as the industry standard in yachting qualifications. Or perhaps you can explain why its the desirable qualification amongst professional yacht in many (if not all) places and why the RYA are asked to license/administer Yachtmaster exams in a number of countries in the world. This includes countries that have their own 'in house' boat. qualifications. ie They have mandatory licensing, yet the RYA run schools and courses and administer YM exams for locals ex pats and visitors...
All is not perfect as what was a voluntary scheme for the UK yachtsman and woman has become so successful that it has become part of the professional world and I would be the first to admit that this brings its own challenges. The RYA might not be perfect, but if you can devise a better way to represent sailing (in all its forms) as well as power-boating (in all its forms) in the UK then perhaps you can tell how to go about it?
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I was meaning to imply something more than a steady income or profit when I said 'cash cow'. There had been an accusation that the RYA is making lots of easy money out the ICC scheme. I don't believe that to be true and when I used the term 'cash cow' I meant it to mean, 'lots of easy money' and to refute such a claim.
Personally I have no problem with the RYA making a stead income from the ICC scheme but I would have a problem if it was suggested that they were making excessively large profits out of the scheme. At free to members and £40 for non members I don't understand how anyone can suggest that they are making excessive profits. Assuming they've got a person administering the scheme and doling out the tickets, then I am going to guess that the £40 covers their salary (including pension scheme etc) printing and postage and office costs. I don't see how there's much net gain going into the central funds.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Tell me where you can get an acceptable ICC and CEVNI certificate free of charge without undergoing a formal test.
What is the information you are requiring citation for?
You clearly have no understanding of the concept of "cash cow". You have merely described an activity that leads to profit. That is not a Cash Cow using the accepted definitions. You are clearly out of your depth here. I suggest you read the Wikipedia definition and then provide evidence that the ICC meets that definition. Loose and incorrect use of specific terms does not help understand specific issues. It demonstrates lack of knowledge and sloppy thinking.
Why are you bringing Webbie into this discussion?
The information provided is clear and open. You are arguing that it does not include something that you think it should include, which is not the same as saying that it is not clear and open. I am not arguing, just stating that the information is clearly expressed. Why do you expect it to provide a list of countries where you cannot charter without an ICC? There do not appear to be any such countries so it would be foolish to claim that there were. It does explain that some countries require evidence of competence, as do some charter operators even if it is not a formal legal requirement - and that the ICC is often accepted for this purpose. This is a reflection of reality.
So I am not sure why you consider the lack of a list a problem. The RYA and MCA have no control over the acceptability of the certificate that is the responsibility of the body requiring evidence of competence.
So what is it you are not clear about that has not been dealt with?
Nobody else seems to have the slightest difficulty with understanding the nature if the ICC. Intelligent people seem to be quite capable of finding out about, it assessing the value to them and making their decision. You have presumably done the same and decided it is not for you, so it is difficult to see why you have any further interest in the subject
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toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
So can the entire populations of all but ~20 countries worldwide!
Concise OED definition of cash cow: "a business or investment that provides a steady income or profit". All the online definitions I can find are consistent with the OED and the definition I quoted above (which I chose because it was typical).
Here's my original post, AFAICT nobody has credibly refuted a single fact. The use of the ad hom & distraction fallacies is a fairly strong indicator that nobody can.
I don't know how you reach that conclusion, the unit price alone isn't enough to decide - you need to state the volume as well.
There seems to be some circumstantial evidence that the RYA do regard ICCs as a cash cow:
- Five year renewal: They could choose any renewal period they want. Choosing five years is done for no other reason that to milk it. Other countries sell their citizens a lifetime ICC. There was nothing to stop the RYA choosing a 50 year renewal period to kick it into the long grass for most people.
- They've tied the CEVNI to the ICC. It would be quite possible to issue CEVNIs without the ICC as long as there was some kind of minimalist practical element to the CEVNI test.
- The current rules on who can examine for a UK ICC leverage sales of RYA qualifications and certainly put business the way of the sailing schools. AFAIK it would be perfectly legal to issue ICCs the old way - a signature from a yacht club officer.
- The information on the RYA website is clearly intended to boost ICC sales. They use the word 'accepted' all over the place to imply 'legally required'.
- Nowhere do they simply list all the nations that *require* visitors to have ICCs. Why not? The only reason I can think of is that the list would be so short that nobody would buy one. (And the only reason the ICC is required there for British Residents is that the RYA won't sell you a CEVNI qual without an ICC!)
- With the minimal set up and running costs the margins will obviously be enormous.
- They shamelessly use ICCs to leverage membership.
Whether or not such a cash cow is good or bad is a separate issue and one I make no comment on. You can argue it either way.
We should remind ourselves that vast majority of the worlds nations don't issue ICCs at all and their citizens travel/charter as freely in boats as we do but without spending time and cash getting initially assessed plus £40 every 5 years. Which might make someone ask: UK issued ICCs, A tax on stupidity?
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Please read the Wikipedia definition which is the one that is used most frequently in real life. What you are describing is normal business, but implying that it is somehow wrong. A cash cow is a product or service that yields excess profits and is used to support other parts of the business that do not make "profits". For that you have absolutely no evidence - in fact by your own admission you only have "circumstantial evidence" none of which is related to costs or revenues - which of course allows you to make any claim you want as you do not have to justify it. All this is your ill informed opinion and is therefore treated as such.
To repeat.
It may well be possible for the MCA to remove the 5 year renewal - ASK THEM.
The ICC is irrevocably tied to CEVNI in that if you want a CEVNI certificate you have to meet the minimum requirements of the ICC - which can be done in a number of ways including, if you are eligible, being assessed for an ICC issued by the RYA on behalf of the UK government.
You do not have to attend an RYA recognised sailing school to gain an ICC. The "old system" you refer to has been replaced by the ICC to meet the requirements of the UN Resolution. All you have to do (if you do not hold a qualification that entitles you to an ICC) is undertake a test by an authorised tester who may be a qualified member of your club or a professional examiner. Not unreasonable that the UK government should require authorised evidence of your competence before an internationally recognised certificate is issued under its authority.
The RYA do not claim that it is a legal requirement. They are very clear about its origin and status. They claim, quite correctly it is "recognised" and tell you who might recognise it and for what purpose. So the only thing that is "clearly intended" is to inform so that people can make their own decision about whether they need the certificate or not.
The RYA does not list nations that require an ICC because a list does not exist except insofar as those that have signed up to UN Resolution 40 and that information has always been in the public domain for obvious reasons.
Your statement about costs and margins is purely your guesswork. You have no information on what they might be, so how can you make the statement that "margins are obviously enormous"?
Your statement about "leverage membership" is just gobbledegook - that is unsubstantiated opinion. The ICC is provided to eligible members as a benefit for which they pay as part of their subscriptions. It is also offered to eligible non members if they need it and for which there is a charge, just in the same way as any organisation can charge for its services. Non members are treated in exactly the same way as members - they submit their evidence of competence and the certificate is issued.
So having destroyed all but one your so called "facts" your so called argument (whatever it is) disappears in a puff of smoke.
If you want to make a serious contribution to this debate (and I can't really see why you need to as it is of no concern of yours) then establish your facts and not make wild unsubstantiated assertions.
BTW learn to spell properly or at least take note of the spell checker.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Please provide details of the number of other ways. It interests me and www.vnf.fr is remarkably silent on the topic of exactly what personal qualifications they require. I'm starting to wonder if it's just like the hire boats, someone just spends 5 minutes watching private boat owners steer and signs you off as capable FOC!
They had to write a syllabus in a word document and now keep some names on a list. For that investment they get £40 a time for posting a card.
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Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
I would not go so far as to cite this as the reason for the 5 year life span of an ICC.
I would suggest a possible explanation is
The MCA regard the ICC as an actual MCA government approved certificate of competence.
A policy in line with other certificates of competence issued by the MCA would make sense.
MCA certificates require a Continued Proficiency Endorsement every 5 years.
If you continue to use through the 5 years (12 months sea time) you just show up show the proof of sea time and other requirements and cross their palm with silver.
C.P.E. issued.
This is part of STCW 95. I think originally predates 95.
If not there is a course and a refresher exam.
So if you obtain an ICC and you sail only once on a holiday charter .5 years later you might have forgotten a few things and the MCA think it is worth while to expect a refresher or proof of continued experience.
Again not knowing anything about it I am guessing..
A RYA Yachtmaster is a lifetime voluntary training and certification no renewal required.
A RYA Yatchtmaster with the Commercial Endorsement approved by STCW 95 The Commercial Endorsement probably requires a CPE.
I would suggest a possible explanation is
The MCA regard the ICC as an actual MCA government approved certificate of competence.
A policy in line with other certificates of competence issued by the MCA would make sense.
MCA certificates require a Continued Proficiency Endorsement every 5 years.
If you continue to use through the 5 years (12 months sea time) you just show up show the proof of sea time and other requirements and cross their palm with silver.
C.P.E. issued.
This is part of STCW 95. I think originally predates 95.
If not there is a course and a refresher exam.
So if you obtain an ICC and you sail only once on a holiday charter .5 years later you might have forgotten a few things and the MCA think it is worth while to expect a refresher or proof of continued experience.
Again not knowing anything about it I am guessing..
A RYA Yachtmaster is a lifetime voluntary training and certification no renewal required.
A RYA Yatchtmaster with the Commercial Endorsement approved by STCW 95 The Commercial Endorsement probably requires a CPE.
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