RYA:

chinita said:
Then, suddenly, out of the blue we are confronted with a ridiculous outcome linked to ex-pat property taxation. You couldn't make it up!

And that is it, end of discussion - as far as the RYA is concerned.

So, we have gone from a safety issue to a tax and residency issue.

Frankly, I wish that the RYA had never been invited to the party. My candid view is that this problem has been given to a functionary, well out of his/her depth and has obfuscated matters to such an extent that the Portuguese 'authorities' have fallen back on their old favourite - tax.
Click to expand...
So, are you suggesting that the RYA proposed the 180 day rule?

It really does not matter whether it is the same as a personal or property based rule. They are just setting a time after which the boat needs to comply. They have no need to justify it - they could have said 3 months, 6 months, a year... and 180 days has some logic as it is analogous to the period when other similar status changes apply. They are not linking your boat to your tax or property residence as far as I can see, so you could be permanently resident in UK, never visit Portugal, but own a UK flagged vessel based there and the boat be subject to the regulations. Equally it would seem that you could be a Portuguese resident, own a non Portuguese registered boat, but not keep it permanently in Portugal, in which case it would not need to comply.

Seems to me that you are making up an issue that is not there. Fail to see how RYA intervention has changed anything other than clarified what the official Portuguese policy is. You will recall that initially the ministry said it was not the policy, but then, after it was informed that certain local officials were operating such a policy it changed its mind. Presumably it has the power to establish such rules.

So it has gone from a situation where there was lack of clarity about what the rules are and variable implementation to a situation of clarity (at least at the level of the responsible ministry). Whether the variable implementation is resolved only time will tell. Surely that is better than the before when nobody was sure what the rules were or whether there was a legal basis for them?

It would be very difficult for the RYA or the UK government to ask for any special treatment for UK registered boat as there does not seem to be discrimination - the same rules seem to apply to all non Portuguese flagged boats, and the practical difficulties of complying such as the purchase of flares applies to everybody, including the Portuguese. You might also consider it fortunate that don't seem to want non Portuguese boats to have the compulsory 5 year survey, nor skippers to have a licence - either of which would be much more onerous that complying with the equipment requirements.
 
Fred drift or what?

Loved this thread - all round the houses & going nowhere!

Manna to any thread. Great thing - the less you know the more you can rant!

Nevertheless, must recognise that on this subject, where Portugal is concerned, my close friend chinita really knows his onions; additionally Tranona is no slouch!

Length of posts? Weather must be really rubbish in the UK - especially at Pin Mill - well I did warn you - Essex weather is better!

Ref - The Portuguese Debate, why not take it over to the Liveaboard Topic, The Truth About Sailing On The Algarve Thread? Bit quiet over there.

Truth to say the Portuguese Authorities (PA) seemed to have turned their attentions to harassing foreign motorists (so on your return, watch out, chinita).

Another theory is the PA has run out of fuel to fuel their vessels (€1.40/ltr).

Additionally, foreign flagged vessels have sharpened up their act & got light dues (€2 or €11.50 but a long queue) so fewer easy pickings for the PA!

Whatever, yesterday had a lovely trip around the bay testing the boat before heading off to Ayamonte to avoid the dreaded boat tax due after 183 days contiguous (not the RYA's 180 day myth) in Portuguese Waters.

Avoiding, not evading tax is a national pass-time in Portugal, which is possibly why there are the problems there are.

Whatever, hurry back chinata so we can sit outside the new improved Lazy Jacks & toast the RYA & Tranona & commiserate about the quality of life in the Old Country.

Oh yes as I write, the Nortada is blowing old boots.

Moi - King of the Fred Drifters?
 
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Tranona said:
So, are you suggesting that the RYA proposed the 180 day rule?
Click to expand...

No, but I would like to suggest that the RYA had probably never heard of the 180 day rule. Why should they have heard of it? - it is nothing to do with cruising yachtsmen.

That is why they cannot react to the absurdity of the Portuguese statement - because the miserable functionary charged with dealing with correspondence from Rallyveteran et al simply has no idea of the implications for those who keep their boats in Portugal.

I really makes me chuckle. All these suggestions to 'Report it to the RYA; send all your detailed experiences to the RYA.....blah blah'. The only person more amused than I must be the 'Captain of the Port' (whoever he may be, but as mentioned in the RYA statement) who must be thinking 'What the **** is the RYA, and why are they writing to me in Faro, in English'.

Defend them all you like but I am afraid that all the RYA has done is make matters (potentially) worse.
 
nortada said:
Loved this thread - all round the houses & going nowhere!

Manna to any thread. Great thing - the less you know the more you can rant!

Nevertheless, must recognise that on this subject, where Portugal is concerned, my close friend chinita really knows his onions; additionally Tranona is no slouch!

Length of posts? Weather must be really rubbish in the UK - especially at Pin Mill - well I did warn you - Essex weather is better!

Ref - The Portuguese Debate, why not take it over to the Liveaboard Topic, The Truth About Sailing On The Algarve Thread? Bit quiet over there.

Truth to say the Portuguese Authorities (PA) seemed to have turned their attentions to harassing foreign motorists (so on your return, watch out, chinita).

Another theory is the PA has run out of fuel to fuel their vessels (€1.40/ltr).

Additionally, foreign flagged vessels have sharpened up their act & got light dues (€2 or €11.50 but a long queue) so fewer easy pickings for the PA!

Whatever, yesterday had a lovely trip around the bay testing the boat before heading off to Ayamonte to avoid the dreaded boat tax due after 183 days contiguous (not the RYA's 180 day myth) in Portuguese Waters.

Avoiding, not evading tax is a national pass-time in Portugal, which is possibly why there are the problems there are.

Whatever, hurry back chinata so we can sit outside the new improved Lazy Jacks & toast the RYA & Tranona & commiserate about the quality of life in the Old Country.

Oh yes as I write, the Nortada is blowing old boots.

Moi - King of the Fred Drifters.
Click to expand...

I wondered where you had got to!

Anyway, my contributions to the thread are over. I can't think of any more ways to try to make my point. I would be happier if someone actually based in Portugal challenged my views so we could have a reasoned discussion on the way ahead - if there is one, which I doubt.

Back for a week now and very much missing the New Country. Planning to take the boat from Brightlingsea to Pin Mill on Sunday. Constant northerlies for the next ten days so can look forward to a bumpy wind over tide and donking along for six hours.

Give our love to anyone who remembers us. :)
 
chinita said:
Defend them all you like but I am afraid that all the RYA has done is make matters (potentially) worse.
Click to expand...

How can it have made it "worse". Of course it is "worse" than having no rules at all. But "better" having the state of confusion that seemed to exist before. Are you suggesting that the RYA intervention has resulted in the ministry doing something that they would not otherwise have done?

How does the 180 day rule affect your tax or residence status? Seems to me (unless I have missed something) that the rule applies to the boat, so the linking to the time period to a time period used for a different purpose is irrelevant to the impact of the rule on your boat and the owner. Don't understand why the RYA not knowing of 180 days has any bearing on the matter. Presumably the Portuguese ministry decided on that and provided the RYA with an explanation as to why they chose it even if it seems irrational. You can't blame the RYA for reporting what they have been told. If they had not intervened the outcome would have been exactly the same except that you would not have had the official confirmation.

I am not defending them for the sake of defending but really trying to understand what your beef is about their successful attempt at getting clarification. They have no control or influence over another state's lawful processes and it is unreasonable to expect them to do more than lobby and in this case it is unlikely that lobbying on behalf of UK boat owners for special treatment on safety matters would be successful. If, however the actions are seen to be discriminatory or contravene international agreements, or even contrary to their own laws and processes then there may be a case for more positive action. That does not seem to be the case here. The rules apply to everybody and by making a clear distinction between visiting boats and resident boats they meet the principles of comity in respect of innocent passage - in fact they are more generous than a strict interpretation might allow.
 
chinita said:
I wondered where you had got to!

Anyway, my contributions to the thread are over. I can't think of any more ways to try to make my point. I would be happier if someone actually based in Portugal challenged my views so we could have a reasoned discussion on the way ahead - if there is one, which I doubt.

Back for a week now and very much missing the New Country. Planning to take the boat from Brightlingsea to Pin Mill on Sunday. Constant northerlies for the next ten days so can look forward to a bumpy wind over tide and donking along for six hours.

Give our love to anyone who remembers us. :)
Click to expand...

Fixing the boat - as usual & queuing for the lighthouse dues!

Love to, but how can any of us challenge what you say - you are correct!

Just thought it was time one of us joined you in the trenches.

You could re-open the dialogue on the Liveaboard Forum, Algarve Thread - just posted so it is at the top?

You & yours are well remembered here but Derry regrets your absence - we are doing our best to fill the big gap you have left.

Hope to see you there or here before too long & give my love to The Wallet.

Cheers
 
chinita said:
I wondered where you had got to!

Anyway, my contributions to the thread are over. I can't think of any more ways to try to make my point. I would be happier if someone actually based in Portugal challenged my views so we could have a reasoned discussion on the way ahead - if there is one, which I doubt.

Back for a week now and very much missing the New Country. Planning to take the boat from Brightlingsea to Pin Mill on Sunday. Constant northerlies for the next ten days so can look forward to a bumpy wind over tide and donking along for six hours.

Give our love to anyone who remembers us. :)
Click to expand...

At chinita's behest, as one who sails in The Algarve, I tentatively poke my head over the parapet.

Really believe the Portugal issue would better be discussed on the Liveaboard Forum.

However, I feel there is a need to set the record straight.

First the issue. In recent seasons the Portuguese Authorities (PA) have taken to boarding vessels at sea & insisting on carrying out various inspections - supposedly in the interests of safety at sea. Their subsequent actions have been the subject of much debate but very limited factual detail.

When the RYA got involved this 180-day issue first appeared? Bit confusing as the two 183 day issues they allude to are totally separate & are as follows:

If you are in Portugal for 183 days in a fiscal (calendar) year, you are deemed to be a tax resident & required to submit a tax return, detailing your estate world-wide (yes - including the UK), in Portuguese to the tax authorities. As there is a bi-lateral tax agreement between the UK & Portugal it doesn't follow that you will be taxed twice on the same income. However, this 183 days rule could trigger a raft of extra unfortunate consequences. Unlike the UK,since 1990 Portugal has been a signatory of the Schengen Agreement on open borders, it makes it nigh impossible to work out where anybody is so unless you own land based property, provided you keep your head down nothing will happen. Please excuse me shouting but THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH BOATS.

If your boat is in Portuguese Waters for more than 183 days contiguous in a financial (calender) year you are liable for Portuguese Circulation Tax. However, provided the vessel leaves Portuguese Waters before the 183 days are up (just for one day), then the clock resets to zero - so an easy tax to avoid. Nothing to do with safety at sea, never checked by the authorities at sea but administered by the local tax office, who also rarely pursue this tax of about £50 on a 40hp boat (based on engine(s) size - punitive for high power cruisers).

Circulation Tax also applies to aircraft & cars & in this form can be very painful for anybody caught with a foreign plated car in Portugal after 183 days (no calendar year get out) as they will be required to matriculate but, to date, this tax has not been applied to boats. They tried it in certain regions of Spain with predicable results - a mass exodus.

Now to the RYA, not too surprising, from day one they got their wires crossed & their 180 day rule & muddled reasoning just added to the confusion, which hasn't helped anyone.

As chinita observed, doubt if the gun toting authorities in The Algarve have ever heard of the RYA & to cite them as an authority for your supposed transgressions could lead to an 'interesting response' (night in the slammer?).

To cause even greater confusion, only The Algarve has been subjected to these checks so it is difficult to explain concerns to Lisboa, which is in The Alentejo - blank stares!

Unlike the UK, in both Spain & Portugal the different regions have far greater autonomy.

If your still reading all of this cr*p, hope it settles the Portuguese element of the RYA debate & permits you to go back to a straight debate/fight on the inadequacies of the RYA. Red diesel? No don't get that in Portugal.

p.s. if you are heading in this direction & want more on the Iberian situation suggest you come up on the Liveaboard site - tons of it there.
 
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nortada said:
If your still reading all of this cr*p
Click to expand...

I'm still reading it!

I read the threads in the Liveaboard section with a load of interest and this post is a wonderfully clear explanation of the issues. I've no plans to spend half a year in Portugal any time soon but I do find this stuff really interesting.

Thanks for taking the trouble to post it.
 
nortada said:
At chinita's behest, as one who sails in The Algarve, I tentatively poke my head over the parapet.

Really believe the Portugal issue would better be discussed on the Liveaboard Forum.

However, I feel there is a need to set the record straight.

First the issue. In recent seasons the Portuguese Authorities (PA) have taken to boarding vessels at sea & insisting on carrying out various inspections - supposedly in the interests of safety at sea. Their subsequent actions have been the subject of much debate but very limited factual detail.

When the RYA got involved this 180-day issue first appeared? Bit confusing as the two 183 day issues they allude to are totally separate & are as follows:

If you are in Portugal for 183 days in a fiscal (calendar) year, you are deemed to be a tax resident & required to submit a tax return, detailing your estate world-wide (yes - including the UK), in Portuguese to the tax authorities. As there is a bi-lateral tax agreement between the UK & Portugal it doesn't follow that you will be taxed twice on the same income. However, this 183 days rule could trigger a raft of extra unfortunate consequences. Unlike the UK,since 1990 Portugal has been a signatory of the Schengen Agreement on open borders, it makes it nigh impossible to work out where anybody is so unless you own land based property, provided you keep your head down nothing will happen. Please excuse me shouting but THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH BOATS.

If your boat is in Portuguese Waters for more than 183 days contiguous in a financial (calender) year you are liable for Portuguese Circulation Tax. However, provided the vessel leaves Portuguese Waters before the 183 days are up (just for one day), then the clock resets to zero - so an easy tax to avoid. Nothing to do with safety at sea, never checked by the authorities at sea but administered by the local tax office, who also rarely pursue this tax of about £50 on a 40hp boat (based on engine(s) size - punitive for high power cruisers).

Circulation Tax also applies to aircraft & cars & in this form can be very painful for anybody caught with a foreign plated car in Portugal after 183 days (no calendar year get out) as they will be required to matriculate but, to date, this tax has not been applied to boats. They tried it in certain regions of Spain with predicable results - a mass exodus.

Now to the RYA, not too surprising, from day one they got their wires crossed & their 180 day rule & muddled reasoning just added to the confusion, which hasn't helped anyone.

As chinita observed, doubt if the gun toting authorities in The Algarve have ever heard of the RYA & to cite them as an authority for your supposed transgressions could lead to an 'interesting response' (night in the slammer?).

To cause even greater confusion, only The Algarve has been subjected to these checks so it is difficult to explain concerns to Lisboa, which is in The Alentejo - blank stares!

Unlike the UK, in both Spain & Portugal the different regions have far greater autonomy.

If your still reading all of this cr*p, hope it settles the Portuguese element of the RYA debate & permits you to go back to a straight debate/fight on the inadequacies of the RYA. Red diesel? No don't get that in Portugal.

p.s. if you are heading in this direction & want more on the Iberian situation suggest you come up on the Liveaboard site - tons of it there.
Click to expand...

I suggest you write to the Cruising Association, MCA, Dutch Barge Owners Association and the Walton & Frinton Yacht Club to voice your concerns. :rolleyes: :)
 
nortada said:
Now to the RYA, not too surprising, from day one they got their wires crossed & their 180 day rule & muddled reasoning just added to the confusion, which hasn't helped anyone.
Click to expand...
A good summary, but it does not answer my question - was it the RYA that "invented" the 180 day rule? Nothing I have seen suggests they are doing anything other than relaying what they have been told by the ministry.

Before their latest advice the situation was as you described, local officials acting in a particular way and the first advice from the ministry was that those actions were not in line with government policy. Subsequent approaches seeking clarification because it still seemed a problem on the ground got the response that it was now government policy to apply the safety regulations for boats staying longer than 180 days. This was reported to members.

If this is a correct account of events I fail to see that RYA intervention has had a negative impact. If they had done nothing presumably local officials would still take action, but you would not know whether it was government policy or not.

Of course judging by accounts of past experiences in similar situations in both Portugal and many other countries with devolved decision making there is never any guarantee of consistent application - or indeed of well framed regulations. There is constant debate here and on Liveaboard about ICCs, cruising logs, local taxes, sewage disposal etc etc but in general cruising people find a way through them or if they are based in a country that adopts a negative policy towards them vote with their feet and take their boats elsewhere. Obviously not everybody has the last option so they have to learn to live with it.

BTW the RYA is quite clear about its remit. It will not generally get involved in matters of other countries' domestic policies other than seek clarification about how it might affect UK citizens and their boats (see the page on Spain for example). However it will take action if another state discriminates against UK yachtsmen by acting against international treaties and in particular EU directives. Hence the action over red diesel and in the past over cruising logs and restrictions on chartering in Greece.

So, if anybody objects in principle to the regulations then they need to take it up with the appropriate ministry. If they are shown to discriminate either in principle or in practice against any individual or nationality, or in contravention of any international or EU agreement, then there is a role for the RYA and ultimately the UK government to take action. From what is known about this issue none of these conditions apply.
 
Tranona said:
was it the RYA that "invented" the 180 day rule?
Click to expand...

Nobody is suggesting that. On the contrary they (I) am suggesting that the RYA know SFA about the 180 day rule and that their correspondence with the 'authorities' (and I would love to know precisely who these 'authorities' are - 'Captain of the Port' is not quite specific enough for me, I am afraid) has provoked (albeit innocently) the reaction and linkage to irrelevant property tax rules.

You say that any objections should be taken up with the appropriate Ministry. This is what you said earlier in the year:

'Right on cue, just after I posted above the RYA magazine dropped through the letterbox. On page 24 is an item advising that the Instituto Portuario e dos Transportes Maritimos had confirmed to the RYA that Portuguese equipment and safety requirements for recreational craft are intended for Portuguese flagged craft only, and requesting any information on experiences of officials saying specific equipment is required (on non Portuguese craft)'.

So, what happened to that then?
 
Tranona said:
A good summary, but it does not answer my question - was it the RYA that "invented" the 180 day rule? Nothing I have seen suggests they are doing anything other than relaying what they have been told by the ministry.

Before their latest advice the situation was as you described, local officials acting in a particular way and the first advice from the ministry was that those actions were not in line with government policy. Subsequent approaches seeking clarification because it still seemed a problem on the ground got the response that it was now government policy to apply the safety regulations for boats staying longer than 180 days. This was reported to members.

If this is a correct account of events I fail to see that RYA intervention has had a negative impact. If they had done nothing presumably local officials would still take action, but you would not know whether it was government policy or not.

Of course judging by accounts of past experiences in similar situations in both Portugal and many other countries with devolved decision making there is never any guarantee of consistent application - or indeed of well framed regulations. There is constant debate here and on Liveaboard about ICCs, cruising logs, local taxes, sewage disposal etc etc but in general cruising people find a way through them or if they are based in a country that adopts a negative policy towards them vote with their feet and take their boats elsewhere. Obviously not everybody has the last option so they have to learn to live with it.

BTW the RYA is quite clear about its remit. It will not generally get involved in matters of other countries' domestic policies other than seek clarification about how it might affect UK citizens and their boats (see the page on Spain for example). However it will take action if another state discriminates against UK yachtsmen by acting against international treaties and in particular EU directives. Hence the action over red diesel and in the past over cruising logs and restrictions on chartering in Greece.

So, if anybody objects in principle to the regulations then they need to take it up with the appropriate ministry. If they are shown to discriminate either in principle or in practice against any individual or nationality, or in contravention of any international or EU agreement, then there is a role for the RYA and ultimately the UK government to take action. From what is known about this issue none of these conditions apply.
Click to expand...

Forgive me please if I have missed something as I only skimmed this thread but, WRT the Portugese situation, are we not a little bit in the same situation as we were concerning the French papers? ie They make the rules for their own territorial waters.

If you spend the majority of the year in a country ie more than 183 days (contiguous or not) for tax purposes most countries accept that you have migrated fiscally. The Portugese authorities would seem to extend this principle to the boats owned by migrated boaters implying that the boats have been imported and therefore should consequently comply with Portugese norms concerning safety equipment. Whether one agrees with this or not, it does have a certain logic and it's their party...

What surprises me is the number of people who complain about EU regulations imposing standard rules, but when one country begs to differ and show some individuality, there is a general hue and cry!
 
I am chartering in Levkas at the end of next week and the company just emailed me to say that port officials are asking for ORIGINAL qualifications (read ICC) before they will let me take the yacht out.

Not a problem to me as I have one but it confirms that people are being asked for them in Greece, in spite what some people think.

As always, inconsistency is the enemy...
 
chinita said:
I suggest you write to the Cruising Association, MCA, Dutch Barge Owners Association and the Walton & Frinton Yacht Club to voice your concerns. :rolleyes: :)
Click to expand...

Moi concerns. Never - just navigate around the problems or if that isn't possible go deep & silent:rolleyes:

Not sure what the Walton & Frinton Yacht Club et al could do:confused:

Absolutely certain the Portuguese have never heard of any of 'em or many of the W&FYC know where The Algarve is - not in the Backwaters for sure:)

Got up this morning - shock horror, no sun - well it will be cooler for the last walk of the season & they promise things back to normal & sun will be back tomorrow;)
 
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