RYA National Handicap Cruisers

[H4B]

Blinking bonkers new scheme. My handicap, Westerly Fulmar, has gone from base number 909 to 963 in three races! The crew don't really get it , the better we get, winning becomes more difficult. Whilst its meant to encourage participation,which I am all for, it does not encourage success and achievement. Going IRC is the suggested course but that would mean a change of club relocation and is pretty unlikely and is a thirty year old heavy old boat ever going to cut it as one of the slower boats in IRC , I doubt it.

Rant over.

 

[mrming]

Whilst its meant to encourage participation, which I am all for, it does not encourage success and achievement.

Totally agree with this.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

the change from 909 to 963 suggests that you were not just doing well but that your corrected times were way better than the fleet average. In other words, that on 909 you were a bandit. But then if your club had been operating the system correctly, the old PY handicap would also have changed almost as rapidly as mine did when Byron inadvertently gave a wrong number for my boat and I won the first few races by a lot.

there's one bit of the new system that I dislike strongly, and that is the lack of correction factors to the base number for twin keels, different props, spinnakers etc that mean a bilge fulmar with a three blade prop and no spinny starts on the same number as a fulmar with a fin, folder and spinny. When I spoke to the guy who had devised the system, he explained that they had instead built in very rapid handical adjustment for the first few races of a series. And even faster adjustments for a regatta.

Are you aware that if you enter another series with different boats in it, you will have a different handicap number? And yet another for the club regatta. But again that should have been the case with the old PY is properly applied - something few clubs did.

In the end it is a performance based handicap so the ideal result it is designed to give is every boat finishing level at the end of a series. So do what one of our members did - lose the first few races so you put in the better performances when the handicap adjustment is smaller. He denies it of course but he won several series before we spotted it and has won fewer since then.

 

[smth448]

Completely agree. The problem witht he system is that it rewards mediocrity. There is no point in preparing your boat well for racing and having a well drilled crew if you can be beaten by a boat with weed and barnacles and sloppy crew work.
IRC is much better but Noddy Handicap seems to be reducing its numbers even more. We have been running parallel series in IRC and Noddy at our club and often have had only one IRC rated boat starting. We have certainly seen no more boats racing this year than last, just fewer paying the money to get an IRC rating.

 

[mrming]

I have to say it's difficult to think of anything better short of ponying up for IRC. In order to use a fixed rather than variable TCC, the boat has to be measured in some way, and that process has to be fair, which means it has to be administered by someone (and will therefore cost money).

This season is my first racing as a (small) keelboat owner after many years of dinghies and crewing other people's yachts. I can honestly say that the money it would cost me for a unendorsed IRC cert would be a drop in the ocean compared to the overall cost of racing every week for a season. Currently IRC is not an option in the class I race in, but maybe if everyone uniformly hates NHC it may become possible in the future.

 

[FullCircle]

Can't we return to the old system of 'Man with the most money and protest technique wins'?

That worked for decades.


Thing is, we are now broadly cash equivalent to previous years, but spend more time earning it. Which leaves us with less time and energy to race boats, even if we had the inclination, and could dispel the suspicion that it is all a stitch up anyway, just reading the same old names year after year on the winner boards hanging up round the club.

 

[maxi77]

Completely agree. The problem witht he system is that it rewards mediocrity. There is no point in preparing your boat well for racing and having a well drilled crew if you can be beaten by a boat with weed and barnacles and sloppy crew work.
IRC is much better but Noddy Handicap seems to be reducing its numbers even more. We have been running parallel series in IRC and Noddy at our club and often have had only one IRC rated boat starting. We have certainly seen no more boats racing this year than last, just fewer paying the money to get an IRC rating.

I know of a club where they have operated a rolling handicap system based on the PY scheme for many years and their experience has been that racing has maintained it's popularity amongst the members. Clubs were actually supposed to make adjustments under the old PY scheme but most failed to bother themselves. Rolling handicaps in the end do actually give close racing where everyone tries because they might actually win which most find enjoyable.

The downside is the system will weed out the handicap bandits pretty fast

 

[H4B]

I know of a club where they have operated a rolling handicap system based on the PY scheme for many years and their experience has been that racing has maintained it's popularity amongst the members. Clubs were actually supposed to make adjustments under the old PY scheme but most failed to bother themselves. Rolling handicaps in the end do actually give close racing where everyone tries because they might actually win which most find enjoyable.

The downside is the system will weed out the handicap bandits pretty fast

My club has previously run PY and the handicaps were rigorously revised after each series, so about three times a year. We even consistently returned our results to RYA each year , something which very few clubs did!It all seemed to work well but being ultra RYA conformists? We have gone with the new system. Perhaps it is too early to reach conclusion because we have cancelled more races than we have run so far this year. However there are opportunities to ' factor in performance improvements' for example the laminate headsail stays in the bag until later into a series. There are other alternatives Byron being the obvious which I think forms the basis of the Sussex club handicap system.

Me a bandit !!

 

[H4B]

the change from 909 to 963 suggests that you were not just doing well but that your corrected times were way better than the fleet average. In other words, that on 909 you were a bandit. But then if your club had been operating the system correctly, the old PY handicap would also have changed almost as rapidly as mine did when Byron inadvertently gave a wrong number for my boat and I won the first few races by a lot.

there's one bit of the new system that I dislike strongly, and that is the lack of correction factors to the base number for twin keels, different props, spinnakers etc that mean a bilge fulmar with a three blade prop and no spinny starts on the same number as a fulmar with a fin, folder and spinny. When I spoke to the guy who had devised the system, he explained that they had instead built in very rapid handical adjustment for the first few races of a series. And even faster adjustments for a regatta.

Are you aware that if you enter another series with different boats in it, you will have a different handicap number? And yet another for the club regatta. But again that should have been the case with the old PY is properly applied - something few clubs did.

In the end it is a performance based handicap so the ideal result it is designed to give is every boat finishing level at the end of a series. So do what one of our members did - lose the first few races so you put in the better performances when the handicap adjustment is smaller. He denies it of course but he won several series before we spotted it and has won fewer since then.

My handicap for fin folding prop Fulmar got down to 965 PY last year so I was not surprised by the rapid increase in NHC number. Another of the problems is infrequent competitors or late arrivals into a series who come in with a distinct advantage until their performance is factored in. Got to give a couple years I know but I just hope it has the desired affect of getting more ordinary cruising yachts involved in low key racing.

 

[lw395]

What is fundamentally different is that two Sonatas or whatever should now have different NHC numbers.
That's a consequence of the 'equal chance of winning' principle.
But what happens if the personnel change during a series, or even between series?
Apart from making one design racing look good, I really don't see any good outcomes from this.

 

[crewman]

I know of a club where they have operated a rolling handicap system based on the PY scheme for many years and their experience has been that racing has maintained it's popularity amongst the members. Clubs were actually supposed to make adjustments under the old PY scheme but most failed to bother themselves. Rolling handicaps in the end do actually give close racing where everyone tries because they might actually win which most find enjoyable.

The downside is the system will weed out the handicap bandits pretty fast

You are talking about Port Edgar where I race. The handicap is reviewed after every club race it is built into the computer programme for race results. We use a modification of PY at present. If you perform well your handicap is changed immediately, it takes two bad consecutive bad results. Your handicap is moved by a fraction (5% I think) of the difference between your achieved handicap and your PY handicap.
To get the change the OP had either the original handicap was wrong or he was sailing well outside the normal range, even then the coefficient between the achieved performance and base handicap seems high. The system does have its detractors - often those with serious racing budgets, regular keen race crews etc. For those who just want to have a fun sail without a big budget it means I regularly make mid fleet and when I get it right I am in the top 3!

 

[Quandary]

You are talking about Port Edgar where I race. The handicap is reviewed after every club race it is built into the computer programme for race results. We use a modification of PY at present. If you perform well your handicap is changed immediately, it takes two bad consecutive bad results. Your handicap is moved by a fraction (5% I think) of the difference between your achieved handicap and your PY handicap.
To get the change the OP had either the original handicap was wrong or he was sailing well outside the normal range, even then the coefficient between the achieved performance and base handicap seems high. The system does have its detractors - often those with serious racing budgets, regular keen race crews etc. For those who just want to have a fun sail without a big budget it means I regularly make mid fleet and when I get it right I am in the top 3!

Surely that is the whole point! 'those who just want to have fun' don't deserve to beat boats that are prepared to put the effort in and take competition seriously. What real satisfaction can they get anyway from a trophy for a slightly lower level of mediocrity.
These systems have been tried for decades, I remember the old 'Echo' handicap, all it did was encourage keen guys to avoid events where it was used. The consequence was that club racing became the preserve of a few duffers pootling about before going to the bar and the few serious racers went IRC. With nothing in between good young sailors on the way up stayed in dinghies or went to football at the weekends.

 

[H4B]

What is fundamentally different is that two Sonatas or whatever should now have different NHC numbers.
That's a consequence of the 'equal chance of winning' principle.
But what happens if the personnel change during a series, or even between series?
Apart from making one design racing look good, I really don't see any good outcomes from this.

I am inclined to agree.

An extremely experienced club elder said , a couple years back, that 'fundamentally one had to accept that handicap racing was never going to be entirely fair' .

 

[maxi77]

You are talking about Port Edgar where I race. The handicap is reviewed after every club race it is built into the computer programme for race results. We use a modification of PY at present. If you perform well your handicap is changed immediately, it takes two bad consecutive bad results. Your handicap is moved by a fraction (5% I think) of the difference between your achieved handicap and your PY handicap.
To get the change the OP had either the original handicap was wrong or he was sailing well outside the normal range, even then the coefficient between the achieved performance and base handicap seems high. The system does have its detractors - often those with serious racing budgets, regular keen race crews etc. For those who just want to have a fun sail without a big budget it means I regularly make mid fleet and when I get it right I am in the top 3!

I used to know Jim at work, give him my best

 

[maxi77]

Surely that is the whole point! 'those who just want to have fun' don't deserve to beat boats that are prepared to put the effort in and take competition seriously. What real satisfaction can they get anyway from a trophy for a slightly lower level of mediocrity.
These systems have been tried for decades, I remember the old 'Echo' handicap, all it did was encourage keen guys to avoid events where it was used. The consequence was that club racing became the preserve of a few duffers pootling about before going to the bar and the few serious racers went IRC. With nothing in between good young sailors on the way up stayed in dinghies or went to football at the weekends.

Knowing a lot of the guys at PE the ones who win do take it seriously, rolling handicap systems are not a sop to mediocrity rather they measure performance race by race and give those down the list realistic targets to improve.

 

[Gwylan]

A pleasant change here with a reasoned and balanced discussion, so far.
Throughout it there is the issue of the difference between those who take it seriously and those for whom it is an obsession.

Years ago I loved competitive dinghy racing to the exclusion of most other pastimes and studies.

Later life has brought me a comfortable cruiser that suits SWMBO and me. This is bilge keel, fixed prop, large water and diesel tanks all very steady and heavy. Light airs and I'm dead in the water, bit of a blow and we'll make better progress than might be expected.

We cruise in the Summer and day sail most of the rest of the year. I cannot afford two boats but I would like to race locally, round the cans or further afield.

Up to now getting a handicap has been the biggest single barrier to entrance. That and a set of competitive sails along with shedding the half a ton of dross that we lug around when cruising.

So, I want a quick, cheap handicap and my fellow racers deserve that my 'bandit status' is quickly exposed and the playing ground levelled.
Ah! but what happens if I race with all the **** on board, then proceed to remove all the junk and move up the order. Suddenly I drain the water tank and go to race with 10 litres of diesel instead of 150.

Next I get the wonder sails and abuse the handicap to get further up the charts.

Might be the Awards Evening before I am really rumbled, but of course no gentleman would behave in such a way.

Then it occurs to me that on a basis of logic it does seem that the system will end up with handicaps shifting and everyone finishing with the same corrected time.

Anyway, the new sails have been vetoed for the rest of this season at least. And I've no idea of where I might hide all the spare tools that I've hidden on the boat up to now.

 

[lw395]

Personally, I take the view that if you need to 'win' via some convoluted spread sheet in order to enjoy your racing, you are probably not doing it right.
I prefer to hope that the results give an honest assessment of my performance and I will enjoy trying to come 7th instead of 9th and feel I've done really well if I've come 4th and beaten a few people I respect.
A lot of the handicap races we do, we don't even look at the results, we just race against a few 'identical' boats (which happen to mostly be newer with bigger sail budgets), within a handicap fleet.

I think there is a place for 'personal handicap' schemes either in parallel with 'proper' yardsticks, or for occasional use. They can be great to give improvers a bit of encouragement.
And if you have one or two prima-donnas, it does not hurt to take them out of the frame now and then.
And if you don't want to play, you can treat it as a training race, crews race, experiment with the settings race etc.

What concerns me is that changing everything too much means nobody trusts any of the yardsticks any more, whereas in the old days in dinghies, we knew an Enterprise rated 118 and a Solo 122, and if someone beat you on that basis, you accepted they sailed better than you and tried to do the same.

 

[crewman]

Surely that is the whole point! 'those who just want to have fun' don't deserve to beat boats that are prepared to put the effort in and take competition seriously. What real satisfaction can they get anyway from a trophy for a slightly lower level of mediocrity.
These systems have been tried for decades, I remember the old 'Echo' handicap, all it did was encourage keen guys to avoid events where it was used. The consequence was that club racing became the preserve of a few duffers pootling about before going to the bar and the few serious racers went IRC. With nothing in between good young sailors on the way up stayed in dinghies or went to football at the weekends.

As Maxi 77 said, those who take it seriously tend to get it right more often and have few bad results, they still win the series! It is only club races where rolling handicaps are used, open events use fixed (PY) handicaps. It is not perfect, but it does seem to encourage members to race we have an active racing fleet varying from a racers such as Mumm 36 to and elderly MG30

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Surely that is the whole point! 'those who just want to have fun' don't deserve to beat boats that are prepared to put the effort in and take competition seriously. What real satisfaction can they get anyway from a trophy for a slightly lower level of mediocrity.

Well I guess that in your world the guy with the biggest cheque book is the one taking the racing most seriously, because its the biggest cheque book that most often wins in IRC. You need to ask yourself why IRC fleets are shrinking but PY and now NMC fleets are stable or growing a bit. We race both fleets at once and our PY fleet is now three times the size of the diminishing IRC fleet to the point where we have somnetimes had to put the IRC in with the PY. That has proved a pointless exercise - no one in the PY fleet has a hope in hell against the IRC guys with empty boats, fancy gear, laminate sails and a crew of hotshots. Maybe you think the family cruising boats shouldnt race?

But in the end your views dont matter. If you dont like performance based handicaps then sail IRC. But you not liking them should not mean that no one else can use them.

P.S. You do realise that both golf and horse racing go on performance based handicaps

 

[lw395]

Well I guess that in your world the guy with the biggest cheque book is the one taking the racing most seriously, because its the biggest cheque book that most often wins in IRC. You need to ask yourself why IRC fleets are shrinking but PY and now NMC fleets are stable or growing a bit. We race both fleets at once and our PY fleet is now three times the size of the diminishing IRC fleet to the point where we have somnetimes had to put the IRC in with the PY. That has proved a pointless exercise - no one in the PY fleet has a hope in hell against the IRC guys with empty boats, fancy gear, laminate sails and a crew of hotshots. Maybe you think the family cruising boats shouldnt race?

But in the end your views dont matter. If you dont like performance based handicaps then sail IRC. But you not liking them should not mean that no one else can use them.

P.S. You do realise that both golf and horse racing go on performance based handicaps

Some fair comment in there.
What I object to is the creeping nature of the changes, whereas the PY of a Sonata used to be intended to reflect the potential of a Sonata, it has by degrees been changed to reflect the average performance of the average sonata sailor in his sonata, then drifted to personalisation.
I suspect this may work better in cruisers than dinghies, but in dinghies it is leading to disillusionment with PY altogether, apart from IMHO a few enthusiasts who get more fun from manipulating spreadsheets than sailing their boats.
If the new system had been brought in in parallel with PY on the historic principle of reflecting the potential of the boat, I would have more time for it.