RYA National Handicap Cruisers

I think the RYA live in some kind of fantasy world where loads of boats don't go racing because of issues to do with handicapping systems.

In reality (in our club at least), people who like racing go racing. The net result in our class of small 20 - 25ish foot elderly cruiser racers is going to be everyone having to pony up for IRC because they don't want to race on a system they don't respect.

So if the goal of NHC has been to get more people to pay for IRC, then it will probably have succeeded.
 
Surely any handicap system which is performance based will include in its adjustments the performance of the crew? I cannot see any method to remove the influnce of the crew's racing ability, unless you have "The Stig" do a few laps in every boat and factor in wind strength and sea state! Indeed, some one design rules even dictate the sailmaker, with no deviations allowed from the off-the-shelf items. Others have allowance to be made for the number of crew for each race.

Racing in classes does have drawbacks, such as the suitability of the course for each class. Where the course is common to all classes it is not uncommon to find that tidal gates make a big difference between classes - I've even heard of an entire class going out of time as the tide was stronger than the wind and none could reach the finish line!

Life is full of unfair challenges (just listen to my boss's team briefing), in a fleet with good camaraderie between contestants, everyone recognises who has done nest - even if they are at the back of the fleet. Perhaps we should try to enjoy the smaller successes, even in a race, rather than just focussing on winning overall?

Rob. (who won a third place cup in a three boat race...)
 
rob2 said:
Surely any handicap system which is performance based will include in its adjustments the performance of the crew? I cannot see any method to remove the influnce of the crew's racing ability, unless you have "The Stig" do a few laps in every boat and factor in wind strength and sea state! Indeed, some one design rules even dictate the sailmaker, with no deviations allowed from the off-the-shelf items. Others have allowance to be made for the number of crew for each race.

Racing in classes does have drawbacks, such as the suitability of the course for each class. Where the course is common to all classes it is not uncommon to find that tidal gates make a big difference between classes - I've even heard of an entire class going out of time as the tide was stronger than the wind and none could reach the finish line!

Life is full of unfair challenges (just listen to my boss's team briefing), in a fleet with good camaraderie between contestants, everyone recognises who has done nest - even if they are at the back of the fleet. Perhaps we should try to enjoy the smaller successes, even in a race, rather than just focussing on winning overall?

Rob. (who won a third place cup in a three boat race...)
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Handicap racing isn't fair. I get that. I am hoping that RYA can tweak the programme so that it's fairer to those that try! And small clubs aren't forced into IRC which will almost certainly reduce the number of participants because I just can't see owners going through the process. They want a turn up and go system and oh there's some results!NHC has to creditable and I want it to succeed. There are few alternatives.

RYA could for example, limit the maximum time allowance to 110% of the base number as in the regatta system. Work on a way to take into account ' the sleeper' ie the big fast boat, or small one, that only rocks up now and then with an unadjusted out of date number and easily cleans up on the day.
 
mrming said:
Stick in a reef or two for cruising - job done. They cost upwards of £30k to buy. That's more modern than I can afford. ;)

Anyway back to the subject matter. Having raced on NHC all season, thought some more about it and having read the comments on here, I have to say I agree with those who say the system is really only suitable for encouraging beginners to race. For people who take their racing seriously but don't have the money or inclination to buy grand prix boats, it simply isn't up to the job. We need something boat based, not performance based.
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IRC methinks
 
I really dont understand people moianing about the RYA replacing PY, one performance based system , with NHC, another performance based system. If you dont like performance systems you have the option of either going IRCor even doing as our club has occasionally done - running a series using py numbers but leaving them unchanged. The only result of that, by the way, was that the ex IRC boats were effectively in a different race to the family bilge keel cruisers.

NHC is intended for non serious family crews and not for the keen racers. There are lots of faults in the new system but being performance based isnt one of them.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
I really dont understand people moianing about the RYA replacing PY, one performance based system , with NHC, another performance based system.
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Isn't it the case the PY gives a handicap based on the boat only, whereas the NHC penalises individual crews who do too well?

I note that both the clubs local to me which do cruiser racing seem to use their own handicaps systems and ignore the RYA systems completely.
 
mrming said:
Genuine question - does anyone belong to a UK club where "non serious family crews" are regularly going out racing?

I'm not talking about going out once or twice a year, but actually going out most weeks.
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Both clubs near me (Solway YC and Kirkcudbright SC) seem to have pretty active cruiser racing, although by "pretty active" I mean "fifteen boats competing of whom ten turn out for each of the eight or so races each year".

Does the RYA also run schemes to encourage die-hard racing crews to take up cruising?
 
mrming said:
Can you tell at a distance if they're families or not? Are the sails white or made of shiny stuff?
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Almost all white sails. I haven't done any DNA tests on crews, but I know a few of the participants at both clubs. I get the impression that t here are a couple of crews which really care and the rest do it for fun.
 
H4B said:
Handicap racing isn't fair. I get that. I am hoping that RYA can tweak the programme so that it's fairer to those that try! And small clubs aren't forced into IRC which will almost certainly reduce the number of participants because I just can't see owners going through the process. They want a turn up and go system and oh there's some results!NHC has to creditable and I want it to succeed. There are few alternatives.

RYA could for example, limit the maximum time allowance to 110% of the base number as in the regatta system. Work on a way to take into account ' the sleeper' ie the big fast boat, or small one, that only rocks up now and then with an unadjusted out of date number and easily cleans up on the day.
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I don't see the RYA forcing any one to do anything, if a club decides to adopt a specific handicap system that is their choice alone. In many areas local associations have their own handicap systems mainly because the lack of support in providing data by most sailing clubs made the PY system more and more unrepresentative. The new system will likely fail also i time if clubs continue to fail to fulfill their obligations by reporting handicap data.`

The new system can be used without the rolling handicap element, though that is quite likely to provide the same levels of dissatisfaction as PY did. Having known a club which did operate a rolling handicap system it halted a decline in club racing and seemed to maintain healthy competition.

Of course if a club decides to adopt IRC or any other form of handicap them that is their choice. At least the RYA scheme is transparent and not dependent on decissions made by a select few in locked rooms.
 
maxi77 said:
I don't see the RYA forcing any one to do anything, if a club decides to adopt a specific handicap system that is their choice alone. In many areas local associations have their own handicap systems mainly because the lack of support in providing data by most sailing clubs made the PY system more and more unrepresentative. The new system will likely fail also i time if clubs continue to fail to fulfill their obligations by reporting handicap data.`

The new system can be used without the rolling handicap element, though that is quite likely to provide the same levels of dissatisfaction as PY did. Having known a club which did operate a rolling handicap system it halted a decline in club racing and seemed to maintain healthy competition.

Of course if a club decides to adopt IRC or any other form of handicap them that is their choice. At least the RYA scheme is transparent and not dependent on decissions made by a select few in locked rooms.
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The rolling constantly changing handicap element is the very basis of the scheme so I fail to see how it can operate without?

The inconsistency of crew is also another factor that can distort results. In our club , various boats can change markedly, even over a weekend , changing from two to five with corresponding effectiveness. Spinnaker one day but not the next , for example.
 
H4B said:
The rolling constantly changing handicap element is the very basis of the scheme so I fail to see how it can operate without?

The inconsistency of crew is also another factor that can distort results. In our club , various boats can change markedly, even over a weekend , changing from two to five with corresponding effectiveness. Spinnaker one day but not the next , for example.
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Yes of course the system is intended for a rolling handicap scheme but the base numbers provided can be used as handicap numbers for bog standard corrected time calculations. In your club do make allowances for those who change their configuration from race to race.

As I said it is your choice to use what ever system suits you, as has been pointed out the RUA schemes have always been performance based and the old PY system could be used for rolling handicaps, in fact it was suggested this was the best way to use it.
 
JumbleDuck said:
Isn't it the case the PY gives a handicap based on the boat only, whereas the NHC penalises individual crews who do too well?
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No. You are wrong. Both NHC and PY start with a handicap based on the boat and both if correctly operated, are altered week by week according to results ie taking crew into account. So, for example, we have two sigma 33s in our fleet and one was on a very different PY handicap to the other, all down to crew.

mrming said:
Genuine question - does anyone belong to a UK club where "non serious family crews" are regularly going out racing?

I'm not talking about going out once or twice a year, but actually going out most weeks.
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Yes. My club does. OK there arent many wives there, but there are a lot of family bilge keel boats , some without coloured sails and mostly 30 years old. Whats more this fleet has grown to 20 boats or more with the IRC fleet slowly vanishing.

I should add that NHC is working OK with this fleet. OK there are moans - every fleet member believes he is at a disadvantage to all the others, but then people are like that.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
No. You are wrong. Both NHC and PY start with a handicap based on the boat and both if correctly operated, are altered week by week according to results ie taking crew into account. So, for example, we have two sigma 33s in our fleet and one was on a very different PY handicap to the other, all down to crew.



Yes. My club does. OK there arent many wives there, but there are a lot of family bilge keel boats , some without coloured sails and mostly 30 years old. Whats more this fleet has grown to 20 boats or more with the IRC fleet slowly vanishing.

I should add that NHC is working OK with this fleet. OK there are moans - every fleet member believes he is at a disadvantage to all the others, but then people are like that.
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PY numbers were derived from actual race results compiled into PY returns which every club who ran races should have sent to the RYA, though most never bothered but still complained about the numbers being wrong. Though I have not followed the new system closely the new numbers seem to derived from the PY numbers.

Interestingly one undiscussed benefit of the rolling handicap schemes is that it give the skipper/helm a very direct measure of how he/she performed in each race.
 
maxi77 said:
PY numbers were derived from actual race results compiled into PY returns which every club who ran races should have sent to the RYA, though most never bothered but still complained about the numbers being wrong. Though I have not followed the new system closely the new numbers seem to derived from the PY numbers.

Interestingly one undiscussed benefit of the rolling handicap schemes is that it give the skipper/helm a very direct measure of how he/she performed in each race.
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Well yes but in a rather perverse way. If you do well it's going to get harder next time and likewise if you sail badly your handicap will be adjusted to make it easier for you to ' do better' . In fact you don't know how you really did because the handicap used in race 2 is that attained in race 1, and will not be published until race 2 results are put up, by which time a handicap for race 3 will have been calculated( but not published) and so on. Then a boat turns out that has not previously competed with its base number !
 
maxi77 said:
Interestingly one undiscussed benefit of the rolling handicap schemes is that it give the skipper/helm a very direct measure of how he/she performed in each race.
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Don't get this argument. I tend to find the result tells me how well I did!

Fleets have suffered in all types of racing in the last few years. OD, IRC, PY, you name it. This winter series is the first event I've done this year where a new boat has come out to play in our fleet, and there are two of them. There are still only 8 or 9 coming out to play every week, the first winter series I did on this boat there was about 20, including 3 works entries. Fabulously competitive racing.

Hopefully there will be a few more on order, and the spring series will start to see some recovery in fleet numbers.
 
maxi77 said:
PY numbers were derived from actual race results compiled into PY returns which every club who ran races should have sent to the RYA, though most never bothered but still complained about the numbers being wrong. Though I have not followed the new system closely the new numbers seem to derived from the PY numbers.

Interestingly one undiscussed benefit of the rolling handicap schemes is that it give the skipper/helm a very direct measure of how he/she performed in each race.
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Yes that was the origin of some PY number but in recent years most have been calculated by Byron from boat dimensions because there was a dearth of race results sent to the RYA. Either way, the PY system only ever gave a starter number - after that the club handicapper altered a boats PY number to reflect performance on the water. In other words he did exactly the same adjustment to reflect performance as the new system requires.

The new NHC starter numbers are derived from basic boat dimensions on a simplified version of the IRC calculation. They are presented in the mathematical reciprocal of the PY number format, but if you were to take the reciprocal of either set of numbers and compare to the other you would find a reasonable level of correlation. And thats another odd thing about this debate. PY and NHC are related in reality but because of the different format, people dont realise it.

The biggest differences between PY and NHC are a/ the nhc system of adjustment race by race and b/ the nhc not having basic corrections for such things as spinnakers, twin keels, three blade pros etc. Instead it relies on an initially much faster adjustment to reflect performance which means that anyone with a slower version of a given boat will suffer badly in the first race or two of a series.
 
flaming said:
Don't get this argument. I tend to find the result tells me how well I did!

Fleets have suffered in all types of racing in the last few years. OD, IRC, PY, you name it. This winter series is the first event I've done this year where a new boat has come out to play in our fleet, and there are two of them. There are still only 8 or 9 coming out to play every week, the first winter series I did on this boat there was about 20, including 3 works entries. Fabulously competitive racing.

Hopefully there will be a few more on order, and the spring series will start to see some recovery in fleet numbers.
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The actual race result does not really measure your performance, your position may be the result of some one else being better or worse than normal or perhaps even the last time. Rolling handicap systems take this variability out
 
maxi77 said:
The actual race result does not really measure your performance, your position may be the result of some one else being better or worse than normal or perhaps even the last time. Rolling handicap systems take this variability out
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It seems that NHC requires many races and several series to sort things out to a level of fairness. Anyone got an idea of how many seasons this process might take?, because we don't seem to have yet arrived at that position.
 
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