RYA National Handicap Cruisers

[mrming]

If the new system had been brought in in parallel with PY on the historic principle of reflecting the potential of the boat, I would have more time for it.

+1 to this. I'm perfectly happy to race with a system that involves less admin than IRC, but it would be great if the system was based on the boat's potential. Individual owners can then decide how racy they want to keep their boat, from cruising gear aboard and roller reefing all the way up to empty boat and laminate sails.

Edit - personally our boat is comfy enough inside but does have laminate sails and the deck gear is reasonably up to date.

 

[FullCircle]

I was anchored near the start of Burnham Week on Monday.

A look at the cruiser entries show how dire it has all become.

The largest classes were 5 and 6, which are Family Cruisers with Spinnaker, and Family Cruiser Whie Sails. Around 12 boats total.
The IRC 1,2,3,4 were pathetic.

The whole town used to be heaving with crew of an evening in race week, it now looks no different to a normal week, and the pubs and clubs were not full.

http://burnhamweek.org.uk/results/2013/

 

[mrming]

Looking at the Burnham Week site, there were slightly healthier turnouts in the one design classes with 14 Dragons and 22 Squibs. In our club the Sonatas get some of the largest fleets. Although far too small a sample, this evidence suggests that handicap cruiser racing is a experiencing a larger decline than one design.

I've done the Scottish Series for the last 12 years or so, and have watched that dwindle from what used to be a huge event.

Sonatas are definitely no cheaper to race than a small cruiser, so it's got to be assumed that people are currently preferring one design. I grew up with handicap racing under IOR, IMS and later IRC and the variety of the boats was definitely part of the fun.

Could it be that in harsher economic times the more predictable costs of one design could be more attractive?

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Some fair comment in there.
What I object to is the creeping nature of the changes, whereas the PY of a Sonata used to be intended to reflect the potential of a Sonata, it has by degrees been changed to reflect the average performance of the average sonata sailor in his sonata, then drifted to personalisation.
I suspect this may work better in cruisers than dinghies, but in dinghies it is leading to disillusionment with PY altogether, apart from IMHO a few enthusiasts who get more fun from manipulating spreadsheets than sailing their boats.
If the new system had been brought in in parallel with PY on the historic principle of reflecting the potential of the boat, I would have more time for it.

PY was always based on the returns from clubs and the PY number depended on the best race results not the average. So if you were a beginner out in the sticks and you bought a boat that was raced keenly in the Solent you were in trouble until your handical adjusted to reality. Trouble was, few clubs bothered making race returns to the point where Byron stepped into the breach calculating ersatz PY numbers from boat dimensions like an less sophisticated IRC. The new RYA handicap is really another version of Byron or the IRC and calculates a start handicap in a very similar way to IRC who were involved in its formulation. People tend to be confused into thinking there are lkarge differences in system simply because the new handicap is mathematically the reciprocal of the old one.

In short you could not continue with PY as was and indeed most clubs were already forced to use a lot of Byron numbers, dinghies being the exception where there still is a PY number

The numbers can be converted using the conversion formula (850*PY^-1.187 = IRC ) which was derived by a mathematician correlating official PY and IRC numbers.. My boats IRC would be about 0.923 ( average of other boats with certs) and my new handicap is 0.935 These convert into PYs of 935 and 921. Because of a smaller than standard headsail my Byron number ( there was no official RYA PY number) was 943 and after a year or two's racing my club number was 921. To me thats a good correlation.

Odd thing about this change - I went down to my club a few weeks ago and the racers were there talking about the new system. To a man, they thought that the new system disadvantaged their boat. I put it down to the teaching of maths in schools.

 

[lpdsn]

I remember the old 'Echo' handicap, all it did was encourage keen guys to avoid events where it was used. The consequence was that club racing became the preserve of a few duffers pootling about before going to the bar and the few serious racers went IRC.

ECHO still exists, and it is still having that effect.

It is only useful in rewarding crews who have started to put a bit more effort in and gives them some immediate results to encourage them to keep improving for real racing.

What is really amusing, as an alternative to just getting depressed about it, is the amount of effort you see being put into massaging ECHO handicaps. Trouble is that they can gain an advantage that way, which they wouldn't by just learning to sail better over a period of time.

IRC racing is in decline too. I think cost is a big factor, but there are also more 'optimised' boats around and the French seem to have found a way around it, so (based on peope I've chatted to) there is less confidence in it fairness than there used to be.

Problem is that multiple rating rules also lead to fragmentation of fleets. It's just not as much fun racing against only two or three other boats, so people gradually give up.

I can't see that there's a modern one-design cruiser that is providing an alternative either.

 

[lw395]

.....

I can't see that there's a modern one-design cruiser that is providing an alternative either.

X332? J109?

 

[mrming]

I can't see that there's a modern one-design cruiser that is providing an alternative either.

There's a great First 31.7 fleet in Dublin Bay:

http://317.ie

The boat is fun to race and also has a very comfortable interior.

 

[H4B]

It's clear it's got to be given time to bed in. What is certain in my mind is that there is definitely a need for a simple system to permit aged cruiser racers to compete and have a bit of fun, without breaking the bank, at club level as fairly as possible.

This system may be it.
How long should we give it?

 

[Clive]

Well, I for one, am well P****ed off with the system, you work hard getting your boat ready for sailing, you study the wind and tides, and make a race plan, you break sweat winding and grinding to try and do well, to only get stuffed by the handicap system and some one who took 15 mins to cross the starting line. my handicap is now 1.010 where the base is 0.925 and that is for a full lenth keel version and a genoa, not a shoal draft and a No.3.

I will do the last race of the season, but then I am leaving the club. Racing is ment to be the best team winning, not some lottery, based on the piss poor performance of previous races.

 

[lpdsn]

X332? J109?

X332 s are getting quite old now. J109s normally race under IRC and have quite a spread of handicaps (often with the French boats at the lower end of teh spectrum to add weight to my comment above).

 

[lpdsn]

There's a great First 31.7 fleet in Dublin Bay:

There's a moderate 31.7 fleet in Dublin Bay that run for cover at the merest hint of a F6.

 

[mrming]

There's a moderate 31.7 fleet in Dublin Bay that run for cover at the merest hint of a F6.

Okay but the boat does fit the bill as a modern cruiser racer pretty well and there's a lot of them about.

 

[lpdsn]

Okay but the boat does fit the bill as a modern cruiser racer pretty well and there's a lot of them about.

There not much of a family cruiser unless the missus is a **** hot main trimmer. And I wouldn't call them that modern any more.

 

[mrming]

There not much of a family cruiser unless the missus is a **** hot main trimmer. And I wouldn't call them that modern any more.

Stick in a reef or two for cruising - job done. They cost upwards of £30k to buy. That's more modern than I can afford.

Anyway back to the subject matter. Having raced on NHC all season, thought some more about it and having read the comments on here, I have to say I agree with those who say the system is really only suitable for encouraging beginners to race. For people who take their racing seriously but don't have the money or inclination to buy grand prix boats, it simply isn't up to the job. We need something boat based, not performance based.

 

[lpdsn]

Stick in a reef or two for cruising - job done. They cost upwards of £30k to buy. That's more modern than I can afford.

Anyway back to the subject matter. Having raced on NHC all season, thought some more about it and having read the comments on here, I have to say I agree with those who say the system is really only suitable for encouraging beginners to race. For people who take their racing seriously but don't have the money or inclination to buy grand prix boats, it simply isn't up to the job. We need something boat based, not performance based.

I agree with the last bit. And a performance based system is ok for those who just want a bit of beer can racing, but the risk is fragmenting racing fleets and affecting everyone who races by reducing the viability of it in many places.

A mate, haggling on behalf of another mate of his, got a 31.7 down below £30K, but they decided not to go for it.

If you do go for one, enjoy the racing. It is the hull shape and not the mainsail area that gives the weather helm, so beware that reefing isn't a guarantee of comfort & safety. It kicks in suddenly so you'll often not want to cleat off the main so you can react quickly enough.

 

[H4B]

Stick in a reef or two for cruising - job done. They cost upwards of £30k to buy. That's more modern than I can afford.

Anyway back to the subject matter. Having raced on NHC all season, thought some more about it and having read the comments on here, I have to say I agree with those who say the system is really only suitable for encouraging beginners to race. For people who take their racing seriously but don't have the money or inclination to buy grand prix boats, it simply isn't up to the job. We need something boat based, not performance based.

When I went to a meeting about this at Brighton YC last winter, the message was that clubs should run this but also run races simultaneously for boats with IRC ( dual scoring) because it was assumed that serious racers would want to go IRC. I think, that assumption and expectation is wrong. 25/30 year old cruiser races are simply not competitive in IRC unless they are sailed in Divisions but the trouble is their are so few boats in the lower rated divisions that they are all lumped in together and the courses invariably set for the hotshots with ratings around 1. IME

In the great scheme of things £150 or whatever isn't that much to get an IRC rating but the whole concept is just so alien to someone with an older boat who just likes to race with what they have . RORC/RYA should have gone for an IRC lite and tried to get people in, based on the boat and not this performance scheme.

At a recent club regatta my handicap went from .909 to 1 in three races which reflects the 'level' of the fleet rather than any particular ability of myself, although we do try.

 

[Rudders88]

Knowing a lot of the guys at PE the ones who win do take it seriously, rolling handicap systems are not a sop to mediocrity rather they measure performance race by race and give those down the list realistic targets to improve.

You are talking about Port Edgar where I race. The handicap is reviewed after every club race it is built into the computer programme for race results. We use a modification of PY at present. If you perform well your handicap is changed immediately, it takes two bad consecutive bad results. Your handicap is moved by a fraction (5% I think) of the difference between your achieved handicap and your PY handicap.
To get the change the OP had either the original handicap was wrong or he was sailing well outside the normal range, even then the coefficient between the achieved performance and base handicap seems high. The system does have its detractors - often those with serious racing budgets, regular keen race crews etc. For those who just want to have a fun sail without a big budget it means I regularly make mid fleet and when I get it right I am in the top 3!

I've also raced at PE with the rolling handicap that they developed. There used to be a link on the web site that showed how it all worked, and i think it certainly worked. If you sailed well then you did well, if you made more mistakes then the previous week then you didn't win. I think that the idea is that if you are making less mistakes than the previous races then you should be in with a shout, if you are making more mistakes then you shouldn't be in there just because your boat is prepped well and you've spent a wodd on sails....

We've not tried the new system yet...... Still using Byron then amended locally in the club, I'm not complaining too mush as I've managed to win a few!!

 

[maxi77]

As Maxi 77 said, those who take it seriously tend to get it right more often and have few bad results, they still win the series! It is only club races where rolling handicaps are used, open events use fixed (PY) handicaps. It is not perfect, but it does seem to encourage members to race we have an active racing fleet varying from a racers such as Mumm 36 to and elderly MG30

Mind you knowing quite a few embers of the association handicap committee the did tend to seek out the bandits also.

 

[H4B]

I've also raced at PE with the rolling handicap that they developed. There used to be a link on the web site that showed how it all worked, and i think it certainly worked. If you sailed well then you did well, if you made more mistakes then the previous week then you didn't win. I think that the idea is that if you are making less mistakes than the previous races then you should be in with a shout, if you are making more mistakes then you shouldn't be in there just because your boat is prepped well and you've spent a wodd on sails....

We've not tried the new system yet...... Still using Byron then amended locally in the club, I'm not complaining too mush as I've managed to win a few!!

This new system is designed to take any local tinkering away from club individuals , leaving it entirely to ' the system'!

 

[H4B]

The season will be over for most and apparently the RYA want feed back on this scheme. It clearly disincentives sustained effort, both materially and tactically to do better but in our club has been of minor affect on the majority, who probably don't really understand what's been going on anyway with the new system.

RYA's answer is to go for dual scoring with IRC as the complimentary rating system. No surprise here as IRC is the commercial arm of RORC that helped develop NHC. Dual scoring is not the answer for clubs with small fleets of say 20 boats with 7 regulars.

It is difficult to pass any comment on the system without appearing to be a moaner. We have ended the season on 1.025 an increase of 0.116 on base or to put it another way I have to raise the game by an extra 10 mins in the hour to be competitive at the start of next year. Difficult when races last about an hour.