Babylon
Well-Known Member
I really dislike it when threads become personal and abusive.
RYA - lost the plot?
- Thread starter oldbilbo
- Start date
I really dislike it when threads become personal and abusive.
VO5
Well-Known Member
By Day....
In addition, Inland Rules stipulate that a high intensity white light flashing at regular intervals from 50 to 70 times a minute may be used. There is no basis in the Rules for the popular notion that our national ensign, hoisted upside down, is a recognized signal of distress. No man-of-war would ever subject the colors to that indignity. But if you should see a private craft with the ensign hoisted upside down, it may be in distress and you should report it without delay. SPECIAL SUBMARINE SIGNALS The following signals, though not part of the Rules of the Road, are prescribed for submerged submarines in emergency situations involving rising to periscope depth or surfacing. 1. A yellow smoke flare fired into the air from a submarine indicates that the submarine is coming to periscope depth to carry out surfacing procedures. Ships should clear the immediate vicinity, but should not stop propellers. 2. A red smoke flare fired into the air from a submarine is a signal that the submarine is in serious trouble and will surface immediately if possible. Smoke flares of any color, fired into the air at short intervals, mean that the submarine requires assistance. All ships in the vicinity should stand by to give aid. RESTRICTED-VISIBILITY STEAMING Restricted visibility is defined as anything that restricts regular visibility to a degree that endangers safe navigation. Many people think of restricted visibility as just fog, but restricted visibility can be caused by many other things; rain, smoke, heavy seas, 34
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In addition, Inland Rules stipulate that a high intensity white light flashing at regular intervals from 50 to 70 times a minute may be used. There is no basis in the Rules for the popular notion that our national ensign, hoisted upside down, is a recognized signal of distress. No man-of-war would ever subject the colors to that indignity. But if you should see a private craft with the ensign hoisted upside down, it may be in distress and you should report it without delay. SPECIAL SUBMARINE SIGNALS The following signals, though not part of the Rules of the Road, are prescribed for submerged submarines in emergency situations involving rising to periscope depth or surfacing. 1. A yellow smoke flare fired into the air from a submarine indicates that the submarine is coming to periscope depth to carry out surfacing procedures. Ships should clear the immediate vicinity, but should not stop propellers. 2. A red smoke flare fired into the air from a submarine is a signal that the submarine is in serious trouble and will surface immediately if possible. Smoke flares of any color, fired into the air at short intervals, mean that the submarine requires assistance. All ships in the vicinity should stand by to give aid. RESTRICTED-VISIBILITY STEAMING Restricted visibility is defined as anything that restricts regular visibility to a degree that endangers safe navigation. Many people think of restricted visibility as just fog, but restricted visibility can be caused by many other things; rain, smoke, heavy seas, 34
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By Night...a flashing light.
That's all.
In addition, Inland Rules stipulate that a high intensity white light flashing at regular intervals from 50 to 70 times a minute may be used. There is no basis in the Rules for the popular notion that our national ensign, hoisted upside down, is a recognized signal of distress. No man-of-war would ever subject the colors to that indignity. But if you should see a private craft with the ensign hoisted upside down, it may be in distress and you should report it without delay. SPECIAL SUBMARINE SIGNALS The following signals, though not part of the Rules of the Road, are prescribed for submerged submarines in emergency situations involving rising to periscope depth or surfacing. 1. A yellow smoke flare fired into the air from a submarine indicates that the submarine is coming to periscope depth to carry out surfacing procedures. Ships should clear the immediate vicinity, but should not stop propellers. 2. A red smoke flare fired into the air from a submarine is a signal that the submarine is in serious trouble and will surface immediately if possible. Smoke flares of any color, fired into the air at short intervals, mean that the submarine requires assistance. All ships in the vicinity should stand by to give aid. RESTRICTED-VISIBILITY STEAMING Restricted visibility is defined as anything that restricts regular visibility to a degree that endangers safe navigation. Many people think of restricted visibility as just fog, but restricted visibility can be caused by many other things; rain, smoke, heavy seas, 34
Privacy Statement - Press Release - Copyright Information. - Contact Us - Support Integrated Publishing
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In addition, Inland Rules stipulate that a high intensity white light flashing at regular intervals from 50 to 70 times a minute may be used. There is no basis in the Rules for the popular notion that our national ensign, hoisted upside down, is a recognized signal of distress. No man-of-war would ever subject the colors to that indignity. But if you should see a private craft with the ensign hoisted upside down, it may be in distress and you should report it without delay. SPECIAL SUBMARINE SIGNALS The following signals, though not part of the Rules of the Road, are prescribed for submerged submarines in emergency situations involving rising to periscope depth or surfacing. 1. A yellow smoke flare fired into the air from a submarine indicates that the submarine is coming to periscope depth to carry out surfacing procedures. Ships should clear the immediate vicinity, but should not stop propellers. 2. A red smoke flare fired into the air from a submarine is a signal that the submarine is in serious trouble and will surface immediately if possible. Smoke flares of any color, fired into the air at short intervals, mean that the submarine requires assistance. All ships in the vicinity should stand by to give aid. RESTRICTED-VISIBILITY STEAMING Restricted visibility is defined as anything that restricts regular visibility to a degree that endangers safe navigation. Many people think of restricted visibility as just fog, but restricted visibility can be caused by many other things; rain, smoke, heavy seas, 34
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By Night...a flashing light.
That's all.
oldbilbo
...
Aha! It's the Murricains' confusing things again...
It's a bluddy cheek them lecturing us on ColRegs and Distress Signals and such, them wot got the 'Red' and 'Green' lights signals mixed up, then had the bad grace to refuse to admit it.
VO5
Well-Known Member
No you are not wrong, just vulgar.
dom
Well-Known Member
Re the sub thing, I've no idea and to be frank couldn't care less. You raised an interesting point and it stands to reason that a navy somewhere thought up an emergency surfacing protocol, just as it stands to reason that this is mostly ignored when the situation arises in practice.
With regards to the RYA, I personally think you are being somewhat negative, but that in no way justifies the increasingly tedious volleys of insults leveled against those who point to even the slightest imperfection.
On a lighter note, I very much doubt these insults in any way represent the official RYA line; it may even be alarmed to see its representatives behaving in such a manner.
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VO5
Well-Known Member
Submarine Signals
2016-05-22 in Question of the Week
Submarine Emergency Identification Signals
The US Navy has long authorized certain submarine emergency identification signals. In the past, these signals could be found in Chapter 1 of a current Coast Pilot. No more. Notice to Mariners No. 1, the first publication each year of the weekly NTM includes a section called “Special Notice to Mariners Paragraphs” describing, among many other marine safety topics, the Submarine Emergency Identification Signals (I-1.12).
USCG examinations will continue to include questions on these four signals, three of which are described in the Light List/Coast Pilot publication available to license candidates. While the red, yellow and green signals can be found in the examination excerpts, the white signal must be memorized. NTM describes the signals as follows:
“U.S. submarines are equipped with signal ejectors which may be used to launch identification signals, including emergency signals. Two general types of signals may be used: smoke floats and flares or stars. A combination signal which contains both smoke and flare of the same color may also be used. The smoke floats, which burn on the surface, produce a dense, colored smoke for a period of fifteen to forty-five seconds. The flares or stars are propelled to a height of three hundred to four hundred feet from which they descend by small parachute. The flares or stars burn for about twenty-five seconds. The color of the smoke or flare/star has the following meaning:
a) GREEN – Used under training exercise conditions only to indicate that a torpedo has been fired or that the firing of a torpedo has been simulated. [Note that an alternate color had been black which still is an acceptable answer for some questions.]
b) YELLOW – Indicates that submarine is about to come to periscope depth from below periscope depth. Surface craft terminate antisubmarine counter-attack and clear vicinity of submarine. Do not stop propellers.
c) RED – Indicates an emergency condition within the submarine and that it will surface immediately, if possible. Surface ships clear the area and stand by to give assistance after the submarine has surfaced. In case of repeated red signals, or if the submarine fails to surface within reasonable time, she may be assumed to be disabled. Buoy the location, look for a submarine buoy and attempt to establish sonar communications. Advise U.S. Naval authorities immediately.
d) WHITE – Two whiteflares/smoke in succession indicates that the submarine is about to surface, usually from periscope depth (non-emergency surfacing procedure). Surface craft should clear the vicinity of the submarine.”
These emergency identification signals should not be mistaken for the light assigned by the International and Inland Rules of the Road to submarines (intermittent yellow (amber) flashing beacon).
A green signal, floating in the air from a parachute, about 300 feet above the water, indicates that a submarine _________.
A. has fired a torpedo during a drill.
B. will be coming to the surface.
C. is on the bottom in distress.
D. is in distress and will try to surface.
Answer: A
A yellow signal floating in the air from a small parachute, about 300 feet above the water, would indicate that a submarine ______________.
A. has fired a torpedo during a drill
B. is about to rise to periscope depth
C. is on the bottom in distress
D. is disabled and unable to surface
Answer: B
The color of the signal flare sent up by a submarine about to surface because of an emergency on board is ____________.
A. white
B. green
C. yellow
D. red
Answer: D
During a training exercise a submarine indicating that a torpedo has been fired will send up smoke from a float. The smoke's color will be __________.
A. black
B. red
C. orange
D. yellow
Answer: A [Note that black no longer is listed as an alternative to green in the latest NTM.]
The color of the signal flares sent up by a submarine about to surface from periscope depth is __________.
A. green
B. yellow
C. white
D. red
Answer: C
Restraint of Rulers
Daily Postings
Table of Contents: Today’s Federal Register
Coast Guard News
What’s Happening Now?
Marine Traffic
NWS Marine Forecasts
USCG
Above is further information on the subject.
I don't agree one should not care less about it.
You only have to experience a sub suddenly surfacing in front of you in open water for the experience to truly chasten you.
It is not a scenario to be ignored. Bad enough by day, let alone at night.
It presents a situation to clear the area PDQ.
The RYA is not imperfect. But there are gaps that ought to be filled by a process of seamless learning, instead of jumps.
Jumps create gaps.
Sods law these gaps are traps waiting to snare the uninformed or the unwary.
It could be much better than it is.
But it seems that the commercial consideration takes precedence over everything else.
We end up with a system that is imperfect, which at best is disappointing and at worst is the bringer of unnecessary concerns, is my point, however ferociously it may be defended.
2016-05-22 in Question of the Week
Submarine Emergency Identification Signals
The US Navy has long authorized certain submarine emergency identification signals. In the past, these signals could be found in Chapter 1 of a current Coast Pilot. No more. Notice to Mariners No. 1, the first publication each year of the weekly NTM includes a section called “Special Notice to Mariners Paragraphs” describing, among many other marine safety topics, the Submarine Emergency Identification Signals (I-1.12).
USCG examinations will continue to include questions on these four signals, three of which are described in the Light List/Coast Pilot publication available to license candidates. While the red, yellow and green signals can be found in the examination excerpts, the white signal must be memorized. NTM describes the signals as follows:
“U.S. submarines are equipped with signal ejectors which may be used to launch identification signals, including emergency signals. Two general types of signals may be used: smoke floats and flares or stars. A combination signal which contains both smoke and flare of the same color may also be used. The smoke floats, which burn on the surface, produce a dense, colored smoke for a period of fifteen to forty-five seconds. The flares or stars are propelled to a height of three hundred to four hundred feet from which they descend by small parachute. The flares or stars burn for about twenty-five seconds. The color of the smoke or flare/star has the following meaning:
a) GREEN – Used under training exercise conditions only to indicate that a torpedo has been fired or that the firing of a torpedo has been simulated. [Note that an alternate color had been black which still is an acceptable answer for some questions.]
b) YELLOW – Indicates that submarine is about to come to periscope depth from below periscope depth. Surface craft terminate antisubmarine counter-attack and clear vicinity of submarine. Do not stop propellers.
c) RED – Indicates an emergency condition within the submarine and that it will surface immediately, if possible. Surface ships clear the area and stand by to give assistance after the submarine has surfaced. In case of repeated red signals, or if the submarine fails to surface within reasonable time, she may be assumed to be disabled. Buoy the location, look for a submarine buoy and attempt to establish sonar communications. Advise U.S. Naval authorities immediately.
d) WHITE – Two whiteflares/smoke in succession indicates that the submarine is about to surface, usually from periscope depth (non-emergency surfacing procedure). Surface craft should clear the vicinity of the submarine.”
These emergency identification signals should not be mistaken for the light assigned by the International and Inland Rules of the Road to submarines (intermittent yellow (amber) flashing beacon).
A green signal, floating in the air from a parachute, about 300 feet above the water, indicates that a submarine _________.
A. has fired a torpedo during a drill.
B. will be coming to the surface.
C. is on the bottom in distress.
D. is in distress and will try to surface.
Answer: A
A yellow signal floating in the air from a small parachute, about 300 feet above the water, would indicate that a submarine ______________.
A. has fired a torpedo during a drill
B. is about to rise to periscope depth
C. is on the bottom in distress
D. is disabled and unable to surface
Answer: B
The color of the signal flare sent up by a submarine about to surface because of an emergency on board is ____________.
A. white
B. green
C. yellow
D. red
Answer: D
During a training exercise a submarine indicating that a torpedo has been fired will send up smoke from a float. The smoke's color will be __________.
A. black
B. red
C. orange
D. yellow
Answer: A [Note that black no longer is listed as an alternative to green in the latest NTM.]
The color of the signal flares sent up by a submarine about to surface from periscope depth is __________.
A. green
B. yellow
C. white
D. red
Answer: C
Restraint of Rulers
Daily Postings
Table of Contents: Today’s Federal Register
Coast Guard News
What’s Happening Now?
Marine Traffic
NWS Marine Forecasts
USCG
Above is further information on the subject.
I don't agree one should not care less about it.
You only have to experience a sub suddenly surfacing in front of you in open water for the experience to truly chasten you.
It is not a scenario to be ignored. Bad enough by day, let alone at night.
It presents a situation to clear the area PDQ.
The RYA is not imperfect. But there are gaps that ought to be filled by a process of seamless learning, instead of jumps.
Jumps create gaps.
Sods law these gaps are traps waiting to snare the uninformed or the unwary.
It could be much better than it is.
But it seems that the commercial consideration takes precedence over everything else.
We end up with a system that is imperfect, which at best is disappointing and at worst is the bringer of unnecessary concerns, is my point, however ferociously it may be defended.
lpdsn
Well-Known Member
I wonder where they get their black flares from.
Blue Sunray
Well-Known Member
Not sure if this is the case here (I'm a bit short on context as I have V05 on ignore) but 'Black' Flares or 'Black Illum' is a common shorthand in the military for IR flares.
This is a random example: https://www.nammo.com/globalassets/pdfs/product-sheets/explosivespyrotechnics/nyx_mars2012.pdf
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lpdsn
Well-Known Member
You missed a most surreal and illuminating almost-thesis-length post on smoke signals and flares used by submerged US submarines. He believes it should form part of the RYA syllabus.
Black apparently used to be the colour used to indicate a torpedo had been fired, but it has apparently been replaced by green.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
I for one am sick to death hearing about submarines and reading insulting posts. Can we return to the original subject of the thread?
VO5
Well-Known Member
oldbilbo
...
And another thing.....
The 'International Certificate of Competence' is mandated by a UN subsidiary body, and arrangements for issue are a responsibility of individual governments. The RYA is the sole body within the UK mandated, via the MCA, to issue such certificates i.e. a monopoly.
Such certificates currently cost £45, for a 5-year validity. Renewal is, in the words of the RYA's website 'a paper exercise.... subject to another round of fees, of course. And another round, when that lot have 'expired'.....
It is, however, a moneyspinner for the RYA. And there's nowt wrong with that, if you're daft enough to keep forking out £45 to them every few years....
The 'International Certificate of Competence' is mandated by a UN subsidiary body, and arrangements for issue are a responsibility of individual governments. The RYA is the sole body within the UK mandated, via the MCA, to issue such certificates i.e. a monopoly.
Such certificates currently cost £45, for a 5-year validity. Renewal is, in the words of the RYA's website 'a paper exercise.... subject to another round of fees, of course. And another round, when that lot have 'expired'.....
Source: http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice
It is, however, a moneyspinner for the RYA. And there's nowt wrong with that, if you're daft enough to keep forking out £45 to them every few years....
VO5
Well-Known Member
I will endeavour to explain to you very simply:~
You do not understand simple concepts, so I will try to make it as simple as possible but not too simple.
The question regarding submarines arose because I explained that when I did my studies the tutors were very thorough.
Not only were they strict about us learning the IRPCS and gaining total fluent familiarity without hesitation but additionally for us to understand situations not covered by the rules in print but covered elsewhere as a matter of prudent seamanship.
The matter of the conduct of submarines both in daylight and at night was given the importance that it merits, no less than attention to other potentially hazardous encounters. It is that simple.
VO5
Well-Known Member
Yes, because it has become a business whereas previously it was driven by the pursuit of excellence, nothing more nothing less.
VO5
Well-Known Member
Yes of course, we are still on it.
The original subject of the thread questions, in effect, is whether the RYA's standards are on the slide in preference to commercial considerations.
You don't need to be a code cracker to work it out.
This anxiety that many contributors here feel is palpable, but the vast majority, not having been given the thorough education they deserve are not in possession of the correct yardstick to enable them to spot the flaws, that's all.
The fact that this thread goes on and on with thousands of views is testament to that anxiety, that gut feeling that there is a lot wrong. Now I am likely to be showered with abuse, but I will not be silenced. I have sailed with RYA qualified people who have no practical knowledge of how to reef, another one had no idea how to carry out a gybe under control and the last one panicked when the wind rose to an eight. So you can understand I don't have much faith in any of it.
VO5
Well-Known Member
And furthermore, in my last post above, I forgot to tell you all about another guy, an RYA Yachtmaster Offshore.
This one had no idea how to rig a preventer properly. I let him get on with it just to see what he would do.
He tied a tight bowline to the end of the boom and led the preventer to the leeward midship cleat and made it fast....
...the next thing that happened was that the wind shifted, backing the mainsail. I challenged him as to what course of action he would take to remedy his blunder. He had no idea. So I steered the boat off the wind sufficiently for the mainsail to flap and take the tension off sufficient for the preventer be taken off the cleat.
I asked him what he had been taught. He candidly replied that he was told he could choose, but was not given a step by step instruction in the correct procedure. Shocking ! Absolutely disgusting !
This one had no idea how to rig a preventer properly. I let him get on with it just to see what he would do.
He tied a tight bowline to the end of the boom and led the preventer to the leeward midship cleat and made it fast....
...the next thing that happened was that the wind shifted, backing the mainsail. I challenged him as to what course of action he would take to remedy his blunder. He had no idea. So I steered the boat off the wind sufficiently for the mainsail to flap and take the tension off sufficient for the preventer be taken off the cleat. I asked him what he had been taught. He candidly replied that he was told he could choose, but was not given a step by step instruction in the correct procedure. Shocking ! Absolutely disgusting !
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Sandy Bottom
Well-Known Member
Actually it's not that simple is it, because if it was that simple, you would have understood it correctly, but, as you admitted in your post 404, you were wrong.
Because I (and Cap'n Sensible) having between us +/- 50 years submarine experience, called you out, you then responded by calling me 'vulgar' .
I am not 'vulgar' - I may be 'pig headed', I may be a tosser, I may be lots of bad things, but I am not vulgar, and, in this particular subject I am not wrong, neither is Cap'n Sensible. You know absolutely nothing about this subject, so why are you lecturing people on it?
If your so-called expert instructors demanded 'total fluent familiarity without hesitation' - then, in this particular instance they were wrong.
My gut feeling is that it is you (rather than your instructors) who, in this instance, were wrong.
But, haveg already admitted to me that you were wrong, you continue to lecture us all about how right you are, how simple it is, and how little anybody else knows.
So let me join your party in your language.
1. It is simple.
2. You do not understand it.
3. You are therefore what we submariners call 'A Simpleton'.
4. If that sounds 'vulgar' to you - that's your problem not mine.
5. Got it now?
VO5
Well-Known Member
You leave Captain Sensible out of this. He happens to be my friend and I will publicly state I have very high regard for him as a seaman and he is a gentleman.
You do not know what a simpleton really is.
You have these fanciful notions and you like to contradict and nitpick and argue, for the sake of it, ha ha.
So please yourself. Go and contemplate your navel. You are not in my league at all, or his, for that matter.
I have just incidentally remembered another incident.
I have a group of friends and we decided in a group of nine to visit one of our group who had just bought a lovely house in Key Biscayne, in Florida. He had done his RYA training in the UK, and was very proud of his achievement.
He had a really lovely ketch he had delivered from Hong Kong to his waterfront mooring, a biggish boat a 56 or 58 footer, from memory. Beautiful, blue hull, teak decks, lovely.
At first, I did not reveal I had the Ocean ticket, so as not to belittle him.
But when I began to observe the blunders he made, I offered to skipper the vessel for him. He declined.
So I just let him get on with it ha ha.
We decided to sail to Bimini, which included a night passage.
We arrived at Bimini in the morning.
As there was a total complement of ten of us, I did not feel it necessary to be on deck when approaching the berth.
I was down below opening a can of beer when I felt the boat shudder and heard a sickening crunch.
I quickly rushed up but too late.
He was on the wheel approaching the berth at full tilt and did not put his engine on astern to stop her...
As a consequence of this he crunched his bow and buckled the bow rail in as far as the roller drum. A disaster.
Again, RYA qualified.
So I am mystified as to what is taught and learnt under the system.
And you, with all that experience you have with submarines, are probably not unlike him.
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Sandy Bottom
Well-Known Member
What does a yellow flashing light on a submarine mean?
I presume that you mean 'Bimini Boatyard' in Fort Lauderdale, - Kate is the head waitress, she's listened to many storytellers like you.
If you're in the Key Biscayne area call into the Playwright bar on Collins - my mate Flash (part owner) will sort you out.
Go to Waxy O'Conner's opposite the Emerald Suites, you'll learn more there boy. Been on that microlight flight in Key Biscayne have you? Dived with Jesus?
I did my Ocean ticket at St. George's 1989 - you?
Want to come for a sail and we'll see what's what - genuine invitation?
I presume that you mean 'Bimini Boatyard' in Fort Lauderdale, - Kate is the head waitress, she's listened to many storytellers like you.
If you're in the Key Biscayne area call into the Playwright bar on Collins - my mate Flash (part owner) will sort you out.
Go to Waxy O'Conner's opposite the Emerald Suites, you'll learn more there boy. Been on that microlight flight in Key Biscayne have you? Dived with Jesus?
I did my Ocean ticket at St. George's 1989 - you?
Want to come for a sail and we'll see what's what - genuine invitation?
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