RYA - lost the plot?

[Tranona]

I should know, you have repeatedly said it. As I have repeatedly said that I understand the RYA's reasons for their changes.

You have trumped any other views because in your universe they are only proof that other people are:

Out of touch
Sailing in quiet corner that can safely be disregarded
Not in the mainstream
Behind the times
Living in the past
An unusual and special case, unlike yourself
etc

This is ideal for a closed mind because whatever the case under discussion you can hoist out the same liturgical insults whatever the facts of the case.

The rest of your post seems to add up to the usual smoke an mirrors. If you really have been involved in Education at some level, then little more of the "I think" and a little less of the "I know" would give us all more confidence in the future of the service.

Every time I have made those observations they are supported with facts. For example anybody who suggests that small cruising boats are a large part of the yachting scene has clearly missed the last 20 or 30 years.

You cannot deny the basic facts that boats have got bigger, that more people sail bigger boats, that sailing small boats offshore is a minority and declining activity, nor that the world has changed. Small cruising boats may have been mainstream in the past - indeed they were when I started, but they are not now.

The same with my observations on education. They are based firmly on research and are mainstream thought and practice in university and particularly adult vocational education.

 

[Sandy Bottom]

No it doesn't. It indicates periscope depth as I explain above and is standard procedure for the US Navy as well. That some submarine commanders choose to ignore it is not the point. :encouragement:

What are you going to attach it to?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

What are you going to attach it to?

This should be interesting.

 

[awol]

What are you going to attach it to?

It's obvious- hang it from a sky hook.

 

[Tranona]

Yet professional development, which is a key part of maintaining competence and relevance in industry, for example, is all about blended learning these days: self study (distance learning), maintaining an awareness of changes in the discipline (membership of professional bodies and reading journals), mentored guidance, application; attending courses is a minor part of this. I work for a multinational oil major and our training has changed significantly over the 25 years I have been employed. A significant part of my continuous development is now self study, with on line self examination, usually multiple choice. When I am ready I take the final on line exam (within a time frame stipulated by my employer) and then follow a mentored period before final sign off. This is no wishy way, the training I receive like this is to ensure that I protect my employer against all sorts of litigation at both local and international levels, so it is quite critical. If self study was considered poor model, then my employer would not use it. Think Macondo and BP and you will see why my employer is keen that I don't mess up.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Well said. What you describe is mainstream and has been the dominant strategy for vocational and professional education and development for more than 20 years. Those who "learned" their trade in previous times have no experience of this, which is part of the reason they claim falling standards.

The sea change in approach started in the 1960s when management educationalists realised that not everybody, particularly mature adults learned in the same way and the most ineffective way was rote learning directed by an instructor. The "competence" movement of the 1980's developed this approach, helped by the increasing use of new media for storing and disseminating knowledge. Employers were big drivers in this, having expressed concern about employees arriving with deep factual knowledge, often on a very narrow range of topics, but little idea about how to apply it.

The RYA approach uses the competence model because the outcome expected is somebody who is competent across a wide range of skills needed to skipper a cruising boat, not just to be able to recite facts from a particular area of knowledge underpinning those skills. The challenge with this model is assessment, partly setting the minimum criteria, partly providing equal opportunities for all candidates to demonstrate their competence, and partly ensuring that assessors exercise their judgement fairly. Seems to me, from what I have seen, that the RYA achieves this as well as any other professional development body.

 

[VO5]

Every time I have made those observations they are supported with facts. For example anybody who suggests that small cruising boats are a large part of the yachting scene has clearly missed the last 20 or 30 years.

You cannot deny the basic facts that boats have got bigger, that more people sail bigger boats, that sailing small boats offshore is a minority and declining activity, nor that the world has changed. Small cruising boats may have been mainstream in the past - indeed they were when I started, but they are not now.

The same with my observations on education. They are based firmly on research and are mainstream thought and practice in university and particularly adult vocational education.

Ha Ha Ha....funny....mainstream thought indeed...

It must be the reason why graduates from these hallowed halls of learning you so revere cannot even write a proper letter, spell, punctuate, or even talk proper, dear oh dear....

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Ha Ha Ha....funny....mainstream thought indeed...

It must be the reason why graduates from these hallowed halls of learning you so revere cannot even write a proper letter, spell, punctuate, or even talk proper, dear oh dear....

But the majority of graduates can. It is easy to focus on the failings of a system, rightly so, but these failings should not be attributed to the majority, in my opinion. In a similar manner all youth are considered unemployed, work-shy drug taking hoodies, yet the majority of youth are in work and contributing to society as routinely and normally as their fathers and mothers.

 

[GrahamM376]

You cannot deny the basic facts that boats have got bigger, that more people sail bigger boats, that sailing small boats offshore is a minority and declining activity, nor that the world has changed. Small cruising boats may have been mainstream in the past - indeed they were when I started, but they are not now.

What has that got to do with it? You admit there are still small boats out there, many of which are owned by people who can not afford or, do not want, a large boat.

I have just emailed the RYA, asking them to justify their decision and will post their reply when received.

 

[capnsensible]

No it doesn't. It indicates periscope depth as I explain above and is standard procedure for the US Navy as well. That some submarine commanders choose to ignore it is not the point. :encouragement:

Well lets just say that one of us spent 17 years in the Submarine Service and knows what goes on.

 

[sarabande]

Over forty-five years ago I spent 4 hours a week at Sir John Cass College for two winter terms on the old Board of Trade Yachtmaster Ocean course. The syllabus, rightly was comprehensive, and I can confirm the views of others that teaching of Colregs, inc Lights, and Signalling and the Code of Signals was rigorous and highly structured. As was the ocean sextant section. We had to pass Morse and Semaphore as well.

That course served me well for the next twenty years racing and blue water cruising.

Earlier this year, after an insurance company said "Board of what ?" to my application, I decided to start over again, and went through the Day Skipper shore course at my local club, taught by RYA qualified people experienced in the course.

Now I have over thirty years experience of teaching and training, and something like seven of being taught as an adult, and I do not recognise that the elegant and polished terms used above to describe how the RYA runs its courses were applied in practice either in the club teaching sessions and more significantly in the material given out by the RYA training dept.

The teaching protocols used were clumsy, the understanding by the instructors (lovely and charming men all of them) of how people learn and what they need in order to progress in what is not a linear subject ( DS is a series of small linear topics which can be taken almost in any order) was sadly deficient, and the erratic progress we all made was due to a poor definition of the basic terms of the syllabus, and diagrams which were often difficult to understand and nearly always childish.


The course was in fact heavily dumbed down from the relevant material I had learned years before, and could be said to be a candidate for rigorous review and translocation to current best practice teaching methods and media.


But yes, I enjoyed it, and much of the real learning took place in informal discussions during and after the class, with everyone piling in with advice and mutual help.

Was it good ? No. The course seems to be designed by a graphics person, not by a group of people skilled in identifying the core topics to be learned and the best way to transfer knowledge of those topics to a group of people of widely ranging intellectual ability and sailing experience. In the time spent in the class room, with proper AV and CAT technology, I think the amount of material taught could be increased by 50%, and -importantly - could be taught better and with less confusion. And that would be key to giving a much better understanding of key topics such as Colregs, Comms, and Duties of a skipper.

Was it Good Value ? Yes. About half the course is going on to a week's practical later this year, and that function - of translating a fairly rickety classroom experience to a hands-on learning one is one to which I am very much looking forward.

My view of the current DS course is jaundiced by my previous taught and sailing experience, and by reading here that the RYA applies best practice in designing and running courses. They have skimmed the surface of what people need to know, and do not make use of best teaching practice and technology.

There is a need for an alternative training and assessment organisation, in the same way that schools, colleges and universities have access to a number of rigorously quality controlled examing and syllabus facilities.

 

[shaunksb]

Well lets just say that one of us spent 17 years in the Submarine Service and knows what goes on.

If you are going to start bringing facts and qualified opinion in to all this it's going to ruin it for everyone.

Let him have a bit more rope, please.

The corner shop has run out of popcorn and I'm on the Dorito's now...


____________________________

 

[Deleted member 36384]

... There is a need for an alternative training and assessment organisation, in the same way that schools, colleges and universities have access to a number of rigorously quality controlled examing and syllabus facilities.

I would agree 100% with the need for competition. From conversations with instructors who have recently sat their revalidation, it appears that the RYA are trying to manage a concern with instruction by focusing on instruction methods and styles as well as knowedge. However, if you look at the Navigation Instructors course, on the RYA web site, they actually say that the course is not about teaching standards but about ensuring that the instructor is fully conversant with the course syllabus to a high standard. I think the RYA understand that there are issues with the the teaching skills of some the instructors and are starting to address this. Of course, while you came across a poor instructor, there are other instructors who are very skilled as well. In 1985 I attended the Coastal Skipper / YM shore based course and we had to learn morse at home, the instructor said it would be a waste of our time to learn it in class beyond the introduction to morse and how it was used and common examples from the International Code of Signals.

With regards to competition, an RYA recognised sea school is not allowed to offer any other programme except the RYA programme; if they do, they will lose their RYA recognition.

 

[capnsensible]

If you are going to start bringing facts and qualified opinion in to all this it's going to ruin it for everyone.

Let him have a bit more rope, please.

The corner shop has run out of popcorn and I'm on the Dorito's now...


____________________________

My office once upon a time.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Folks who want to direct concerns about tuition can do so to Richard Faulk, who in this video message from him specifically asks for any queries or questions to be directed to his team.

http://www.rya.org.uk/about-us/Pages/meet-the-team.aspx go to Richard Falk picture and click on the video link.
You tube direct https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqzxqbYxtQ
training@rya.org.uk

Just in case anyone think I teach sailing, I don't, I am an RYA member for many years and have progressed through the scheme.

 

[Babylon]

I am afraid you are very out of touch (unsurprisingly) with what "learning" is all about...

 

[JumbleDuck]

Every time I have made those observations they are supported with facts. For example anybody who suggests that small cruising boats are a large part of the yachting scene has clearly missed the last 20 or 30 years.

Or only sails in places where big boat predominate and dismisses everywhere else as an out-of-the way place, not worth bothering about.

You cannot deny the basic facts that boats have got bigger, that more people sail bigger boats, that sailing small boats offshore is a minority and declining activity, nor that the world has changed. Small cruising boats may have been mainstream in the past - indeed they were when I started, but they are not now.

The small boats haven't disappeared, or at least the GRP ones haven't. They just aren't, generally speaking, in marinas. And even if the absolute number doing adventurous things has declined as well as the proportion, they - we - are still around. Sorry.

The same with my observations on education. They are based firmly on research and are mainstream thought and practice in university and particularly adult vocational education.

You're spot on there, he said after spending a weekend examining graduate engineers against a list of competencies.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I have bought a submarine to the surface twice in emergency conditions. Once as a Panel Operator and once as Ship Control Officer Of The Watch. Didnt put any lights on. Blow and Go. (so to speak).

Just sayin.......

Quite.

That's why I was asking him for clarification. He seemed so sure of himself (and no sign of him referring to a 'trick' question) I wanted to see how much one had to prod to burst his bubble.

I know IRPCS fairly thoroughly and when I test candidates at YM I rarely if ever use flash cards. A candidate the other day complained I'd asked him a question that wasn't on his flash cards. He then admitted he hadn't got a copy of IRPCS and hadn't actually read them through.

 

[Sandy Bottom]

Ha Ha Ha....funny....mainstream thought indeed...

It must be the reason why graduates from these hallowed halls of learning you so revere cannot even write a proper letter, spell, punctuate, or even talk proper, dear oh dear....

I do not wish to be rude VO5, but could I please have an answer to my post 322 :encouragement:

 

[lpdsn]

With regards to competition, an RYA recognised sea school is not allowed to offer any other programme except the RYA programme; if they do, they will lose their RYA recognition.

That's not strictly true. Quite a few schools in Ireland offer both ISA & RYA courses.

 

[oldbilbo]

I have bought a submarine to the surface twice in emergency conditions. Once as a Panel Operator and once as Ship Control Officer Of The Watch. Didnt put any lights on. Blow and Go. (so to speak).

Just sayin.......

I can well understand that, as someone who has on the odd occasion been quite desirous of bringing another of Her Majesty's 'Defence of the Realm' toys to the surface PDQ.

There is a time to work through the Carded Procedures - usually when being assessed by someone who has his sights set on becoming an RYA Examiner - and a time to get the job done. In my 'office' of half a lifetime ago, the requirement was more often than not communicated by "MayDayFireEjecting...." and not the more sedate and approved 'PATHASATNIE' message.

As one wizened and multi-thousand hour QFI put it - "If you've time for all that, you've time to put the fire out,,," and I can well comprehend the surge of adrenalin, dismay and surfacing when the Command Team of one of HM Submarines discover they are just about out of teabags....

All I would ask of Our Heroes in Our Subs is that they show themselves for what they are, now and then, to avoid heart-stopping shock - like when HMS Torbay snuck up on us in the middle of the night in the middle of the Irish Sea - without light of any kind - then commanded us ( two knacker'd ould gentlemen ) by very loud hailer from about 30 feet away to 'Stop!'

By Christ we did!

Almost permanently...