RYA - lost the plot?

[dom]

The wrongdoing was not the RYA but an outfit in SA masquerading as the RYA and issuing certificates that were fakes. Equally the Spanish one was simply fraud. In neither case were the certificates genuine RYA ones. It has already been confirmed here that certificates are only issued by the RYA, not by examiners or schools.

Pretty robust system from what I can see, but you can never stop "real" fraud if people are determined enough. As you know I spent half my life in an academic environment and one of my biggest challenges was dealing with fraudulent qualifications, particularly degree certificates and language qualifications. The more a qualification creates opportunities, the more valuable it is so the more likely it is that there will be fakes.

Oh wow, just blatant fraud! And yes it's interesting to see how some qualifications are getting seriously valuable these days. The trouble for those who fake them is that they are left with time bombs sitting underneath their careers, as opposed to say a kid with a fake ID who couldn't really care once their night is over.

It is also curious to see the way fashions change in this area; a couple of years ago a big UK construction consultancy hired a few sharp young cookies from the Cranfield MBA programme and were absolutely delighted with them. Word quickly spread and if one travels to the Emirtaes today with a Cranfield ticket tucked under one's belt it takes all of five minutes to land a well paid job, in fact make that three!

 

[Tranona]

I dont understand why you would want a yachtmaster qual if you werent competent anyways.. You can still buy a yacht, learn to sail and then sail without a qualification...

Although many achieve the qualifications for personal satisfaction, they are also a prerequisite for crewing professionally so have an economic value - hence the temptation for fakers.

one of the problems here is that people tend to see the RYA (and boating in general) from their own narrow perspective when the reality is that the growth area for the RYA is very different. Designing a qualification scheme to suit the varying requirements of different users is quite a challenge

 

[oldbilbo]

I s'pose the real money is in being an RYA Examiner.....

 

[awol]

I s'pose the real money is in being an RYA Examiner.....

Is it expected to bung the examiner a ton or two to guarantee success? Otherwise I can't see them getting rich.

 

[Tranona]

I s'pose the real money is in being an RYA Examiner.....

why do you say that, even with a smily?

Your original post was nonsense as I hope you realise now. The syllabus has been enhanced, not dumbed down. The criteria you suggested is not relevant for the vast majority of people that undertake RYA qualifications. Once again a narrow perspective ignoring the big picture.

 

[Mister E]

why do you say that, even with a smily?

Your original post was nonsense as I hope you realise now. The syllabus has been enhanced, not dumbed down. The criteria you suggested is not relevant for the vast majority of people that undertake RYA qualifications. Once again a narrow perspective ignoring the big picture.

The original post was about something read in a magazine, and a comment on that. So it is the magazine that produced the nonsense.
If the facts presented in that are given to somebody (who does not have inside knowledge of the way the RYA works) then it could be said to be reasonable that there may be some truth in the article.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Really cannot see what your point is. This whole thread starts from somebody (who incidentally is now absent), getting it wrong in the first place.

The RYA has enhanced the syllabus by ensuring that all holders of the qualification are knowledgeable on tides. How on earth is this regarded as a retrograde step?

That does seem to be how they are trying to spin it, but in fact it seems that they now give people a qualification based on some theoretical knowledge of tides which they previously only gave to people who could demonstrate that knowledge in practice. It would be a bit like saying "We'll give a minibus to anyone who passes a car driving test as long as they can answer a couple of questions about what driving HGVs would be like."

I think it is safe to assume that the move arises from commercial pressure from Mediterranean sea schools.

 

[oldbilbo]

It seems to me that Mr. Tranona ( hoo hee? ) has himself somewhat 'lost the plot'.....

The original post posed more question than answer - which was the intent - and to date there have been close to 3000 'reads' and over 100 'comments'.... with a significant spectrum of views represented. I'm of the view it has achieved its purpose....

Chat about cruising, debate this month's hot topic.

 

[dom]

I think it is safe to assume that the move arises from commercial pressure from Mediterranean sea schools.

I suspect you're right, but is there anything wrong with that? Nobody seriously sees a YM as a ticket to skipper a 200Gt superyacht, aside from a few fuddy duddy instructors who I'd wager would not have the first clue if they stepped aboard such a boat.

YMs these days are basically a fun recreational achievement for a relatively competent sailor and a necessary prerequisite for youngsters wishing to take the first step in their chosen career. The RYA is a reputable organisation and to adapt its product offering to the Med/Carib market seems good for "Brand UK', good for UK exports and good for these kids.

Anyway it's surely in the financial interests of superyact owners to have their crew bone up on the UK tides malarkey before visiting these waters

 

[Mister E]

....Argued in one of the yottie comics.

It's about simplifying, or further 'dumbing down', of the RYA National Training Syllabus to avoid/evade the need for training in tidal conditions.

There are those who reckon one will soon be able to get an 'RYA Certificate of Competence' on the basis of a VR-app checkride.

The question I ask - and the relevant one IMHO ( from the first Principal of SCPR Outdoors Centre Glenmore Lodge, Eric Langmuir ) - is 'Would you entrust your children to those people?' He was speaking in relation to 'going on the Scottish mountains', but the same principle applies to going on the seas.

I find it difficult to maintain confidence in the underpinning values of tha RYA's Training Syllabus.

This is fine as a question until the last line. However there are still some saying about things being Dumed Down. This has been the case since some bloke called Plinney or some such wrote about the younger generation. So nothing new

 

[Tranona]

It seems to me that Mr. Tranona ( hoo hee? ) has himself somewhat 'lost the plot'.....

The original post posed more question than answer - which was the intent - and to date there have been close to 3000 'reads' and over 100 'comments'.... with a significant spectrum of views represented. I'm of the view it has achieved its purpose....

But your basic premise that things have changed so that the qualification no longer meets the criteria about taking children out is simply not true.

There are two issues. first are the changes positive or negative. Second is the qualification suitable for those who want it in order to take children out on boats.

The change has no effect on the second issue, and conflating them as you did is misleading.

 

[Tranona]

That does seem to be how they are trying to spin it, but in fact it seems that they now give people a qualification based on some theoretical knowledge of tides which they previously only gave to people who could demonstrate that knowledge in practice. It would be a bit like saying "We'll give a minibus to anyone who passes a car driving test as long as they can answer a couple of questions about what driving HGVs would be like."

I think it is safe to assume that the move arises from commercial pressure from Mediterranean sea schools.

Previously they had the qualification without tides, now they have to acquire knowledge of tides. How is that a backward step? particularly as the people it is aimed at will likely never need to use that knowledge., and have no opportunity to do it in practice - or should the RYA insist that they all come to the UK for their practical?

Give the RYA some credit for providing opportunities for more people to enhance their skills and gain qualifications.


As to commercial pressure, I doubt the change was greeted with much joy as the previously non tidal Schools now have to teach something extra that is of little direct benefit to their students.

 

[alant]

But your basic premise that things have changed so that the qualification no longer meets the criteria about taking children out is simply not true.

There are two issues. first are the changes positive or negative. Second is the qualification suitable for those who want it in order to take children out on boats.

The change has no effect on the second issue, and conflating them as you did is misleading.

When did a YM qualification get deemed "suitable for those who want it in order to take children out on boats?"
You make it sound like a paedophile charter.

 

[jwilson]

That sort of training seemed to work during WW2 though didn't it, with very young guys from all backgrounds, being trusted to do many dangerous & complex tasks, so why is it wrong 70 yrs later?
Hardly think there were enough experienced helmsmen available for 6th June 44, so D Day would have been delayed many years, using your criteria.

In WWII many people with Yachtmaster tickets were given commissions and bunged more or less straight into command of of smaller naval vessels such as MTBs. Maurice Griffiths was one.

 

[Simondjuk]

To take this back to some of the earlier comments (sorry!) I've sailed with a good many people who have obtained YMs through fast-track programs and in my experience there is generally nothing inferior about the fast-trackers compared to those who have done, say, a YM prep-week and YM exam after sailing for several years without instruction. Often just the opposite in fact.

The average fast-tracker will receive 17 weeks of training from instructors, the majority of whom are extremely good at what they do. So that's 119 days of expert tuition, most of which are spent actually sailing the boat. Your average weekend sailor might, on average, get out on the water for one day a weekend, every other weekend for the 6 summer months of the year. So that'd be 13 days sailing a year. Therefore it might take the average weekend sailor a little over 9 years to accumulate as much experience as a fast-track student does in his course, and even then they will have received none of the expert tuition that the fast-tracker gains substantial additional benefits from.

On balance, if I had to take a punt on which complete stranger I'd pick off the quayside to take my boat back from, let's say, Les Sables-d'Olonne to the Solent in my absence were it to be necessary, I'd pick the guy who offers only a newly printed YM certificate obtained following a fast-track course over the guy who offers only that he's 'Been sailing 30 years and never needed any pieces of paper to do so'.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Previously they had the qualification without tides, now they have to acquire knowledge of tides. How is that a backward step?.

Were Yachtmaster^TM qualifications previously classified as "tidal" and "non-tidal"?

 

[lpdsn]

It would be a bit like saying "We'll give a minibus to anyone who passes a car driving test as long as they can answer a couple of questions about what driving HGVs would be like."

It's more akin to letting someone drive a minibus around the streets of London on the basis of a test passed in Dumfries or Wigtown or suchlike.

There's a fair few places in tidal waters where a YM candidate could sit the exam without demonstrating a practical understanding of the effects of stronger tides.

 

[capnsensible]

Told you this thread was bollocks.

I think you are actually right. You can explain how it really works and what happens in the real world, but there are always posters with a bit of a chip for some reason that dont like the answers....

Quelle surprise.

However, exam rates continue to rise, 25 per cent of the candidates who are leisure sailors will continue to have pride in their achievements. The 75 per cent who need it for their career will continue to become pro sailors and many of them will go on to command big vessels.

Good on em all.

 

[capnsensible]

Were Yachtmaster^TM qualifications previously classified as "tidal" and "non-tidal"?

No. Nor are they now.

 

[capnsensible]

. I am sure that there are others. So fraud is happening and people are getting certificates without doing the full RYA thing.

No it isn't and no they aren't.