RYA - lost the plot?

prv said:
And so what's to stop the qualified examiner writing up a wholly fictional report from time to time and sending it in? I know the overwhelming majority of them are upstanding chaps who would never dream of doing such a thing, but it only takes one. How can you be so utterly, utterly certain that this never happens?



I might say the same thing. You're being rather rude to dom based on little more than your own horror at the potential dishonesty of an unknown colleague.

Pete
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Surely, examiners are the bastion of honesty, we even have a forumite bishop in waitng on here who is an exalted examiner. I'm certain he like the rest, wouldn't fiddle.
 
capnsensible said:
Entirely possible but a likely chance of near zero.

The point once again is that Instructors do not issue these certificates. That is not being rude to Dom but pointing out that someone has told him porkies. Which seem to be believed by others too.

Well, thats their choice. But its not how the scheme works.
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Did you estimate that probability or just pick it from thin air? These may be just isolated incidents, there may be an endemic problem, neither you nor I can possibly know which.

To widen this a bit, there may be schools which hire 'soft' examiners because it's good business to make people feel good about themselves and failing isn't a feel-good event. Travel to Austria or France in the winter and one will see all sorts of 'expert' skiing certificates being doled out, not a problem because these people will never be asked to lead a back-mountain expedition.

This is simply what life looks like at the interface between people's leisure time and the sailing schools seeking to sell them experiences they'll pay good money for. Ask yourself how many posters on here are enthusing about courses they failed -- would that be zero then?

Sometimes lines get blurred, sometimes they get crossed, that's life and since these folk aren't sitting at the front of an Airbus A380, who cares?
 
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JumbleDuck said:
Do they really call it a "national" syllabus now? As I read the article, the insistence on tidal experience was harming their income from Mediterranean
sea schools, so it had to go. I reckon the rot set in, though, when they rebranded Coast Skipper as Yachtmaster Coastal. Not that I have either, you understand. I have Elementary Dayboat with Tidal Endorsement.
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Well I do have Coastal Skipper and couldn't agree more. I was a Coastal Skipper when I passed and I'll stay that way until I take and pass Yachtmaster Offshore. If true, removing the differentiation between 'tidal' and 'non tidal' is crazy.
 
The original post was about the RYA dumbing down the Day Skipper rather than the YM.
I can't see how it has been dumbed down if you would be doing the same old, same old in the Solent or any where else in the UK.
The difference is they are including tides in the course if you do it in the MED. Why would this affect a DS from the Solent?

The DS is about learning how to sail and skipper a yacht in familiar water in daylight. Its a beginner course. All beginners will now be taught about tides.
 
The thread drifted into titles. So what's in a name? Make it simple or less simple?

Once upon a time there was just a Yachtmaster. The Historians have already noted the B.O.T or was it D.O.T. Then the RYA.

Some where along the line "Ocean" was added.
Now Coastal and Offshore. I kind of wonder why and what's the difference.
If some one says I have a Yachtmaster. I now have to wonder Light? Regular? or Grande? along with how and where did you get it.
It's clear as mud.
Off course I forgot. All of them from DS up can be professionalised.
 
richgiddens said:
Well I do have Coastal Skipper and couldn't agree more. I was a Coastal Skipper when I passed and I'll stay that way until I take and pass Yachtmaster Offshore. If true, removing the differentiation between 'tidal' and 'non tidal' is crazy.
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You have it the wrong way round. Those taking their course in non tidal areas are now examined on their knowledge of navigating in tidal waters, even though most will never need that skill.

The RYA should have enhanced the syllabus by insisting that everybody learns how to moor stern to. That will sort them out.

I am amazed by the parochial attitude of some people here who think the UK (and its peculiar sailing conditions) are the centre of the universe. They should get out more into the big wide world.
 
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Tranona said:
You have it the wrong way round. Those taking their course in non tidal areas are now examined on their knowledge of navigating in tidal waters, even though most will never need that skill.

The RYA should have enhanced the syllabus by insisting that everybody learns how to moor stern to. That will sort out them out.

I am amazed by the parochial attitude of some people here who think the UK (and its peculiar sailing conditions) are the centre of the universe. They should get out more into the big wide world.
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I am not amazed by the parochial attitude. I used to have it without realising it. Until I went out into the wider world and found out some of the foreigners. Are actually just as well educated, trained and experienced as the British. Some are even better educated.

Now I am amused by it.:)
 
dom said:
Did you estimate that probability or just pick it from thin air? These may be just isolated incidents, there may be an endemic problem, neither you nor I can possibly know which.
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No I base my view on the fact that I have been fortunate enough to work many years part time and twenty years full time in a very narrow specialist field with a small population. I am constantly reminded by my trade association via reports updates and inspections about what goes on. The same as in many other industries.

Make of that what you will.

However, you specifically charged an instructor with handing out a yachtmaster offshore certificate. It cannot happen. An instructor does not have them. Now if someone has told you they do, you have, unfortunately, been lied to. Now how my pointing out the obvious is rude (prv) or ad hominem (you ) is for you to know and me to wonder about.

As always, Im very happy to help with all genuine questions about the RYA scheme. By default, I happen to know shedloads about it! If that makes you uncomfortable, there are others here such as alant and John Morris that Im sure would also be delighted to help too.

If you have serious concerns then all staff at the RYA would be grateful for your knowledge.

:encouragement:
 
capnsensible said:
Now if someone has told you they do, you have, unfortunately, been lied to.
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That YM Offshore tickets can be easily bought is, I would hope, hyperbole (and hence my earlier request for clarification) but presumably there are quite a few YM examiners. dom's subsequent reply suggests that the candidate was known to the examiner. Is it inconceivable that an individual did a "favour for a mate"?

I have been regaled with tales of what amounts to dereliction of duty in the case of friends and colleagues by people in positions of far more public trust than YM examiners. It's surely not inconceivable that there are one or two whose standards are less than scrupulous.
 
laika said:
That YM Offshore tickets can be easily bought is, I would hope, hyperbole (and hence my earlier request for clarification) but presumably there are quite a few YM examiners. dom's subsequent reply suggests that the candidate was known to the examiner. Is it inconceivable that an individual did a "favour for a mate"?

I have been regaled with tales of what amounts to dereliction of duty in the case of friends and colleagues by people in positions of far more public trust than YM examiners. It's surely not inconceivable that there are one or two whose standards are less than scrupulous.
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As I understand it from examiners I know, they will not examine people they know for those exact reasons, Similarly, they dont re examine candidates they have failed previously. John Morris will have more insight on this having been one for twenty years.

The RYA continuously looks for holes and plugs them. DS and CS course completion certificates have your picture on them, number registered etc.

Its most certainly not Mickey Mouse.
 
capnsensible said:
In 1938 at the request of the Admiralty, the Board of Trade began to hold examinations for Yachtmaster Coastal certificates. So it is an old term regenerated! The fee was £1 10 shillings. YMO exam these days is £210.

The RYA took over the exam in the early 1970's. The first YM's were in 1973.

During the 1970's the exam changed from Coastal to YM Offshore. A coastal skipper qualification was then introduced for a lower level of experience and as a stepping stone to YMO. Until 1987, it could be taken as an oral exam following a practical course. The name change to YM Coastal happened in 2010.

So there you have it, some folk do seem to have got things a bit arris about face.

Quite which Gibraltarian breakfast cereal packet top choice was arrived at I sadly have no idea........
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The RYA did come into it in the early 1970s. And what a change, my goodness !

I have ticket number 2590 dated 4th August 1971, issued by the Board of Trade and registered at the Office of the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen.

In my day the tutors were generally Masters Foreigngoing and Extra Masters, and very professional and thorough in the extreme. The Examiners were all Extra Masters at Dock Street, London, and my goodness were they strict and attentive to the minutest detail, and my goodness did we have to work bloody hard to get it. The slightest flaw knocked back candidates.

The government looked to the possibility of the cold war warming up and needed potential minesweeper and fast patrol boat skippers taught under basically RN requirements. A very detailed knowledge of sail was also required. In those days they tended to think in terms of square rigged vessels as a template for sail, for the Certificate of Competency (ocean), which I hold.

All that has been made to fade away.

It is not that like today.

I will say no more.
 
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How many threads are going to be generated on this particular subject. It is a non subject and should be globally replaced with the words - This thread is bollocks please join in and spout some more.
 
capnsensible said:
As I understand it from examiners I know, they will not examine people they know for those exact reasons, Similarly, they dont re examine candidates they have failed previously. John Morris will have more insight on this having been one for twenty years.

The RYA continuously looks for holes and plugs them. DS and CS course completion certificates have your picture on them, number registered etc.

Its most certainly not Mickey Mouse.
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You know as well as I do that the RYA does not listen to anyone. They have become a law unto themselves. They do as they please, and sadly, through the years, with declining standards it is argued, as a purely commercial consideration.

To put it bluntly - it is just a business - and everybody knows it.
 
capnsensible said:
As I understand it from examiners I know, they will not examine people they know for those exact reasons, Similarly, they dont re examine candidates they have failed previously. John Morris will have more insight on this having been one for twenty years.

The RYA continuously looks for holes and plugs them. DS and CS course completion certificates have your picture on them, number registered etc.

Its most certainly not Mickey Mouse.
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Yes and every single examiner is incorruptible and a jolly good chap to boot, I'm sure. Pull the other one, old boy.
 
NormanB said:
How many threads are going to be generated on this particular subject. It is a non subject and should be globally replaced with the words - This thread is bollocks please join in and spout some more.
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It is not bollocks. It is a very serious topic.

And it is very serious because we are dealing with responsibility and capability, and, in case you don't already know, the sea can be a very cruel mistress.

Now tell us what you've got.

I have the ocean ticket, and thousands of miles under my belt, much of it single handed deep sea.

And here you are with 144 posts to your credit puffing your chest out to us.

Now tell us all about yourself, go on.
 
capnsensible said:
As I understand it from examiners I know, they will not examine people they know for those exact reasons, Similarly, they dont re examine candidates they have failed previously. John Morris will have more insight on this having been one for twenty years.

The RYA continuously looks for holes and plugs them. DS and CS course completion certificates have your picture on them, number registered etc.

Its most certainly not Mickey Mouse.
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Why not?
It does seam a bit odd. Particularly the no re test suggestion. I have examined people I know and re tested people I have not passed. If I ever do not pass a candidate I explain why and what they need to improve. When they return I will check and see if they have picked it up. If so exam is or retest is short. If not it's equally short.

Your own personal integrity will dictate if you go easy on a friend. In reality I am usually harder on them.

The one situation I don't like and prefer to avoid is examining or testing some one I trained. Training and testing are best left separate.

The allegations a system can be circumvented. Are just unsubstantiated rumors from the pub. Is it possible? Maybe. likely why? What's there to gain?
The system appears to be robust enough to make it unlikely or very rare. While any system can be circumvented, Its probably cheaper and easier just to get a real one.
 
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